Thursday, May 15, 2008

Body Snatchers: Better as a Sci-Fi Film?

Nick Redfern, in Body Snatchers In The Desert [Paraview Pocket Books, 2005] sure jumps through a lot of hoops to explain Roswell away:
“A Horton Brothers Flying wing supported by huge Japanese-designed balloons and containing disabled or genetically damaged Japanese who were used as human guinea pigs to provide data on the effects of radiation for use in the NEPA Program.”

Though Redfern bases some of his latest on them, I’d never bet on anonymous whistle blowers. Especially when they’re from the government.

If I went through every scenario disclosed by every anonymous whistle blower in the UFO researcher community, I’d go nuts. But maybe that’s the mission.

I accept documents when conclusive; I accept the testimony of dying military witnesses when they have nothing to gain. Especially when they confess to their relatives, as so many loyal career military did in the Roswell case.

Some whistle blowers lie. One way I think they lie is by exaggerating a real story which loosely may apply. Sometimes, that’s professional misinformation. To do this, they get a researcher like Nick…who, as they say, strains the gnat and swallows the camel. As did many UFO researchers who swallowed the MOGUL story.

Interesting to note how this researcher faction, who discount the MOGUL theory --choose to believe in the witness testimony when it differs from MOGUL, but not when it differs from Redfern’s Body Snatchers version -- suddenly question those witnesses’ memory. There have been a dozen “what really happened at Roswell” books that dismiss all the original boots-on-the-ground witnesses. When you get whistle blowers called “the Colonel” and the “the black Widow’, as Redfern did, you can’t expect anything like serious ufology. But maybe you’d like to option a remake of a classic Sci-Fi film?

Let’s break it down, Redfern’s BS scenario.

First: do these descriptions from Roswell witnesses --who were there-- sound like a Horton Flying Wing made of wood or metals from the ‘40s?

Now let’s hear it from the some of the cojones-sufficient-to-ID-themselves witnesses, instead of “the Colonel” and “Black Widow”.

Start with Jesse Marcell Jr.’s The Roswell Legacy [Paperback, New Page Books, Sept. 2008] on the wonder of the material…

”As we examined the debris and carefully handled it my dad’s excitement was almost palpable… to his family he was a pretty laid back guy taking everything in his stride... [an] intelligence officer on a base with the country’s most guarded secrets… I saw another side to him…It was a mixture of excitement and confusion suffused with a sense of wonder that one just doesn’t see in many grown men.”

And move on to several others who were there.

Counter Intelligence Officer Sergeant Bill Ricket:
“The site itself was generally flat terrain…also evident were sixty or so pieces of what appeared to be very thin aluminum scattered about’…he picked up a piece about 4 inches by 10 inches and placed it over his knee to try and bend it. He couldn’t …Ricket [said]…‘I had never seen a piece of metal so thin that I couldn’t bend it…the more I look at it the more I couldn’t imagine what it was.’”

Major Edwin Easley’s Deathbed confession:
After keeping silent for 45 years, when presented with a book on the UFO crash at Roswell, Easley exclaimed to his granddaughter: “Oh the creatures!”

Sgt. Homer Rowlett, 603 Air Engineering Squadron, who days before passing, told his family:
“Sent as part of a clean-up detail…[he] had seen the memory material…tin foil that kept it’s shape…I saw three people they had large heads and one was alive.”

Rowell Military Hospital administrator Wayne’s Secretary broke down sobbing and told her parents:
[Worried by all the additional personnel running around the hospital her boss,“Wayne”, took her by the arm and had her accompany him to a room and observe a number of bodies on gurneys…]
“‘My God! They are children!’ Then she realized that its body size was the only childlike quality. Their skin was grayest brown…But the heads, the heads were too large…and those large eyes… those eyes that wouldn’t shut…she had heard of all of the talk of a crashed spaceship…‘Why did he[Wayne, her boss] have to involve me?’ she pleaded in the end.”

Lt. Govenor Joseph Montoya, on July 7th, 1947 while at the Roswell base, made this unintentionally close observation:
“We don’t know what it is. There was a flying saucer…[Describing bodies]…big eyes with big eyes shaped like tear drops…mouth small, like a knife cut across a piece of wood and they had large heads…bald heads…they had four long thin fingers on each hand.”

Staff Sergeant Earl Fulford, Top Secret clearance, 603rd Engineering:
[Forced to “volunteer for clean-up duties”, he was bused to any area which had “obviously been policed before”]
“… I only picked up seven small silvery pieces all day… the largest of which was 3 by 4 inches. I looked like thin light aluminum that flex slightly when I picked it up, but once in the palm of your hands you could wad it up into a small ball…and it would immediately form its shape in a second or two.”

Black Cat Mac Magruder, decorated F16 Fighter Pilot, lying on his deathbed, told his daughter:
[During class at the prestigious War College, he was taken to Wright Field and observed a live creature from the Roswell craft]
“…under five feet tall. Human like but with longer arms, large eyes, and an oversized hairless head…a small slit for a mouth, no nose just two small orifices…Ears two small orifices…came from another planet.”

I would never try to discredit Nick Redfern’s research; in fact, his work is usually top notch. But that doesn’t mean the latest Redfern theory makes sense--either in the general context of the larger Roswell story, or in the real-life details-- against the multiple deathbed and end-of-life confessions of loyal military and military support staff, who were there.


BBC Documentary on Roswell Witnesses:



Now that there are a majority who believe UFOs are not ET, it’s that much easier for professional debunkers to do away with the truth. Now debunkers feel safe to take any theory or opinion that comes down the pike to discredit the Roswell ET explanation. But Redfern’s latest scenario automatically puts many of the military professionals and other good, honest witnesses into what I’ll call the stupid category. And I haven’t even included in this discussion the people in the town who actually handled the material from the crafts…like rancher Brazel’s family home, tossed two years after the incident, by military looking for more material from the crafts.

These people have also been ignored or attacked as being too stupid to know a metal with bizarre properties they personally handled was different from the tinfoil on a cigarette package. For me, denigrating these witnesses is unacceptable.

I admit Mr. Redfern tries to cover some of the other witness testimony, like bodies and security measures. But you can’t cherrypick testimony to build a theory. This is what the debunkers do to prove we’re all nuts.

All quotes are from the taped testimony reported in the book A Witness to Roswell: Unmasking the 60-Year Cover-Up, by Schmitt and Cary [New Page Books, 2007].

Stanton Friedman’s take on the history, as well as other problems with explanations put forward by Nick Redfern in Body Snatchers is here:
http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfredfern1.html

Another famous Pilot at a UFO crash sight handles the same type of wreckage as Roswell 8 years later, described here:
http://pr-canada.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=32776&Itemid=61

Joseph Capp
UFO Media Matters

Non-Commercial Blog

42 comments:

  1. Nice rejoinder, Joseph, but Redfern is merely presenting a possible alternative to the Roswell episode, which may have several intertwining aspects, which have worked to confuse the 1947 event(s).

    You believe the "witnesses" and you do well to do so, but there seems to be more to the Roswell scenario than a flying saucer crash.

    And that's what Redfern's hypothesis and book allows.

    RR

    ReplyDelete
  2. Joseph

    We'll continue to differ on this. One thing that many critics get wrong (including you) is referring to this as my scenario.

    You refer to it as "Redfern's BS scenario," as "Redfern's latest scenario," and as "Redfern's theory."

    However, the theories are not mine, never have been, and in many cases the additional data did not come from the people I interviewed.

    I was merely the first person to write a full-length book on this issue that's all. That doesn't make it exclusively "Redfern's theory" however. It means just that I wrote about it and the others who got the same data didn't write about it (or at least not to any great length).

    For example, did you know Australian researcher Keith Basterfield was given the same story as me, but before Body Snatchers was published?

    Or that Popular Mechanics, and Len Stringfield were told similar stories?

    It's not a new scenario that has suddenly surfaced via me, in other words (which the various "Redfern's scenario" comments imply).

    Rather, it's a story that many people have fragments of, and some more than others.

    I find it interesting that you quote some testimomy relating to bodies. That's fine.

    I find it interesting that many who focus on the bodies ignore the testimony of Melvin Brown who said the bodies he saw could have "passed for Chinese."

    To say a body could "pass" for a Chinese person, implies it would have looked *very* human.

    Would you discard the Brown story because his description isn't alien enough?

    Did you know that I now have *FOIA* documents linking biowarfare undertaken by Japan's Unit 731 that is tied to certain events not only in late 40s New Mexico, but in *Lincoln County*, New Mexico, where Brazel found the wreckage?

    Those files were published in issue 1 of Stuart Miller's "Alien Worlds" magazine in the UK a few months ago.

    I also have *FOIA* documents (also in the Stuart Miller article) on people in the *summer of 47" with progeria who were the subject of radiation experiments at Oak Ridge.

    Progeria results in a large bald head, no body hair, and dwarf-like body.

    There's more to come later this year too, on the human experimentation angle of Roswell. Not from me, and not from anonymous sources...

    I would stress that we're all looking for the truth of Roswell, and the fact that although I'm no longer an ETH adherent when it comes to Roswell, I'm still firmly convinced that we have an unknown UFO presence amongst us.

    Those *overall* views of mine *haven't* changed. Roswell is one case I now discard, but 100s of good ones still remain, and that suggest an other-worldly presence of some sort.

    ReplyDelete
  3. Hi Joe,
    The summary of your essay at The Anomalist site is a commercial for Refern's book as when my cursor went over the title of his book, a balloon popped up "available at amazon .com for $11.92."Good ole American in-gen-uity. Maybe this is a metaphor for the state of "ufology" what that is. Wasn't it this one that was optioned for a movie, or was it the one about the monster hunter? American postwar utilization of advanced Axis technology always ends up applied to ufology, and it makes for a good commercial property as there's a movie called Iron something or other about Nazi saucers coming out soon to a theater near you. Roswell makes me feel like a character in Groundhog Day...I think Roswell still stands out because the field is pretty fallow these days,looked at as a form of escapism by the media which can be mined for cash.
    The irony in all this is that serious consideration of the subject has dried up while the popularity of the subject rises.
    I have pretty well given up on the whole thing...as nothing has changed in forty years.

    ReplyDelete
  4. Sorry Nick,
    but you are the one who made money off the theory by writing a book. I just read in a magi. how brave you were to write something that didn't agree with the mainstream UFO community. I had to laugh.. the only brave people are the witnesses of Roswell. Who despite you and all the other back street quarterbacks and the governments... new insiders addition stick to their stories. No one, you or your secret gov. whistle blowers are going to impress me by telling me Blanchard and Marcel mistook this material wood, or forties metal as something completely unknown. If they did that makes them idiots. So when and where will our future witnesses be believed by us..,when they agree with our latest theories, why should they even come forward when 600 hundred of these witnesses have come forward on Roswell and they are dismissed with every theory that comes down the pike even if it is somewhat documented.( you still haven't proven it ever was launched). I still wonder why they would even test this highly secret radioactive research in the desert in the stormy season in July.
    No matter how you slice it; either your theory is wrong, or the witnesses who were there are fools and cant touch or see right.
    I know your audience and so did you. They are made up mainly of groups of UFO people dying to believe UFOs are metaphysical or nothing more then horrible American Test and secret planes. These are the people who can't fathom someone on another world being here and is more intelligent then us and usually a step ahead of us. Sorry Nick but you are the one who made money off the theory by writing a book. I just read in a mag. how brave you were to write something that didn't agree with the mainstream UFO community. I had to laugh.. the only brave people are the witnesses of Roswell. Who despite you and all the other back street quarterbacks and the governments... new insiders addition. No one, you or your secret gov. whistle blowers are going to impress me by telling me Blanchard and Marcel mistook this material wood, or forties metal as something completely unknown. If they did that makes them idiots. So when and where will our future witnesses be believed, or why should they even come forward when 600 hundred have come forward on Roswell and they are dismissed with every theory that comes down the pike even if it is somewhat documented.( you still haven't proven it ever was launched). I still wonder why they would even test this highly secret radioactive research in the desert in the stormy season in July.
    No matter how you slice it either your theory is wrong or the witnesses who were there. I know your audience and so did you. They are the groups of UFO people dying to believe UFOs are metaphysical or nothing more then horrible American Test and secret planes. You don't even have a smoking gun in the book. So how could you name the book The real deal. and use the witnesses testimony to push your book and agenda. God forbid that you would take the whole testimony of these brave witnesses at face value. As far as the Chinese part come on Nick you think I am a fool...I would be very surprise if people didn't use terms like that to describe what they were seeing. They describe some of the metal as balsa wood. How would you describe a large piece of i-beam which is light as a feather. You also seem to forget the fact that around this phenomenon people try and grasp for straws in explaining this. Children...Japanese...Chinese's, Oriental this is descriptions which have been used in abduction cases all over the place. So to use that is foolish. The ones that claimed to be closes say that they had no noses and no ears...just holes. How many people who have had close encounters with these being claim the same thing. Even before Roswell was known.


    You don't even have a smoking gun in the book. So how could you name the book The real deal. and use the witnesses testimony to push your book and agenda. God forbid that you would take the whole testimony of these brave witnesses at face value. As far as the Chinese part come on Nick you think I am a fool...I would be very surprise if people didn't use terms like that to describe what they were seeing. They describe some of the metal as balsa wood. How would you describe a large piece of I-beam which is light as a feather. You also seem to forget the fact that around this phenomenon people try and grasp for straws in explaining what they are seeing to make it sensible. Children...Japanese...Chinese's, Oriental this is descriptions that were not only used at Roswell but in abduction cases all over the place. So to use that is foolish. The ones that claimed to be closes say that they had no noses and no ears...just holes, but of course these people were not right because they disagree with your theory. How many people who have had close encounters with these beings claim the same thing, even before Roswell was known pubic.
    Now one of the death bed confession even hinted at this. No one that was there at this test can prove it was even laughed on that date. I would want a lift off date time a place who was there and some boots on the ground witnesses... until then I will stay with the witnesses who didn't make a dime off of their story.
    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters
    Non-Commercial Blog

    ReplyDelete
  5. Dear Bruce,
    First my last comment to Nick was sent off by mistake so if it is a little confusion please forgive me.
    Unless we become outraged at this nonsense of whistle blowers who never produce the real beef and always discredit the people who where there. We will always have people like Klass running around discounting and manipulating witnesses testimony for their one agenda. I have the Roswell original testimony of the witnesses on tape. It's very bad and hard to here so I never posted it. The testimony is basically the same. But one of the realities of Mack Brazel said something interesting. "It was just like wood but no matter what I did I couldn't burn it or cut it." So this guy who was there mistook metal for wood and couldn't cut it or burn it. I don't by it I actually believe this rancher's brother over the government whistle blowers... just imagine that...and I feel not one bit of guilt over it.
    My last point is I will never put this in the past because people have lost their careers and their lives pursuing the truth of UFOs. Today empathy is a bad word, but I have it and it is not for the book sellers. I don't mind ruffling a few feathers...Nick and the rest have enough money to get a massage when they get stress out over such a brave move like writing a book on Roswell.
    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters

    ReplyDelete
  6. I can understand where you are coming from because when you take away all the chaff of theories, my own included, what you have left is called conscience, a matter of justice, which I know from my own experience is a very tough row to hoe over the years as a practical matter, so I can respect that when you cut away the issues still you have, if you will, a moral dilemma in regard to how blithely the testimony of sincere folks can be pushed aside for other considerations, whether they are intellectual or cash.
    However, Roswell is a very cold case and sometimes I see it as a stain that cant be wiped clean and on the other, its like a crime scene thats been trampled over by so many investigations over decades, not days, that I really cant see that it will ever be anything other than unsolved.

    ReplyDelete
  7. Dear Bruce,
    I think you are right. It seems death bed confessions don't mean much even though it came from 11 different people. If most of the UFO community hadn't been focused on MJ12 we may have had a differnt story. There were still many Roswell witnesses who had never come forward... still alive in early 90s.
    But there is a differnce in seeing lights in the sky and seeing something up close and personal. To be able to study it and handle it and test it that is different and I refuse to stand ideally by while witness after witness is considered an idiot when there discriptions disagree with some Secret gov. porject even if it was in the planning stage.
    No one is going to tell me I saw a jet or a Northrop flying wing in AC NJ 1962 I don't care what doc. they trout out. There are witnesses who make honest mistakes but not like.
    Joseph
    UFO Media Matters
    Non-Commercial Blog

    ReplyDelete
  8. Joseph
    Again, I would refer you to the new *FOIA* (not whistleblower material, or MJ12 type material) coming in now that links Japan's Unit 731 with not just New Mexico - but Lincoln County!

    There's more coming to via *FOIA."

    Do you think it's merely coincidence that there are *official* files now (surfaced via *FOIA*) on large headed, bald dwarves who were the subject of radiation experiments in the summer of 1947?

    You think human bald headed dwarves were experimented on by the govt in the summer of 47, at the same time that the govt was also dealing with the crash-recovery of non-human bald dwarves - in an area of the country rich in secret experimentation?

    Later this year, much more (and I do mean much more and none of it whistleblower) data will surface on all this.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Dear RRR Group,
    Thanks...I think...we will never know the specifics unless the entities themselves divulged it. But the combined testimony of hundreds of witnesses, example after example of something very different going before, during, and after in the area surrounding Roswell suggest what ever this was, it was not from here.
    I think researchers and debunkers need to realize, without the witnesses coming forward even the debunkers we be out of a job. Respecting groups and individual honest witnesses in close encounters has been so very important in coming to grips with this phenomenon. It is the Witnesses honest accurate reports that sometimes has the government scratching their heads without real explanations. If you believe in a coming contact their testimony may be even more to an assessment of what happened in the past.
    Thanks anyway :)
    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters

    ReplyDelete
  10. Dear Nick,
    let's just make a little bet, payable in 2012 Dec 21 10$ or 50$ ok. On that date if you have produced the smoking gun explanation on Roswell as Japanese's bold headed dummies, excuse me, prisoners of war, and a Northrop wing. You win if not you pay.
    I listen for your updates but I won't hold my breath.
    Joe Capp
    UFO Media Matters

    ReplyDelete
  11. Joseph:

    Ok, a bet it is - 50 Dollars works for me.

    And that reminds me: you brought up the issue of earning money from the book.

    If you think UFO authors (me, at least, and definitely all those I know) earn much money, you're sadly mistaken!

    You said: "Nick and the rest have enough money to get a massage when they get stress out over such a brave move like writing a book on Roswell."

    WHAAAAT????!!!

    For the record I have only ever earned royalties from 1 of my 11 books (and that was On the Trail of the Saucer Spies).

    My books have sold between (approx) 800 and 3,500 copies in *total*. That's it.

    I earn around 50 cents/75 cents or so a copy sold (depending on the publisher), so work out how much (or rather how little) that comes to in total, over the course of 12 years of book writing/publishing.

    And if you think publishers pay huge advances for books (Communion aside, I think) you're very wrong!

    To give you an indication - I've been in the US for 8 years and last year (2007) was the very first year I was able to afford any sort of medical insurance, a cell-phone, and a car.

    Now, before it's brought up, I'm *not* complaining at all, as I chose the life I live as a freelance writer.

    I'm merely pointing out that whenever money and ufologists and books are brought up in a collective fashion, it provokes imagery and assumptions of $$$$$$$$$. And such claims are usually brought up by people who have no idea of how the book industry works.

    Your "massage" point makes that *very* clear.

    If you are ever in Dallas, come and see my home. It's not a house or a sprawling designer apartment, it's a 20-foot room.

    On the issue of the bet, how will you define the smoking-gun?

    For example, Stan Friedman might say that the Eisenhower Briefing Document is the smoking gun showing that MJ12 exists. But others would disagree.

    So, for the bet, how are you going to define what a "smoking gun" is, and that it is valid as a smoking gun?

    Will it be defined as something that convinces me?

    Or can it only be considered as smoking gun evidence if it convinces those who currently believe ET crashed at Roswell that they are wrong?

    Will documents suffice? A photo of a body? What?

    ReplyDelete
  12. Irradiated, Japanese bald headed dwarves are behind the retracted announcement of an extraterrestrial craft that was mistaken for a weather balloon that caused the citizens of Roswell to be threatened due to disinformation over a event that never occurred. Makes sense to me.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Dear Bruce
    I want to say I was going to surprise you in June a friend had ask me to go with him to some talks by him in Bolder Colorado. I was very delighted to find out you were speaking there. However it may not pan out but I have him say hello for me.

    Bruce that was funny
    Yes and to this day 60 years later no one from Roswell has come forward on it...which believe it or not, would have had a better chance of being believed than little green men.

    Oh, another thing I didn't bring up was June Crain. She was at Write Patterson when it happened. She handled the material and was told it was from a "spaceship" that crashed in New Mexico. Another interesting thing was the belly laughs from the scientist, when they heard the balloon story. How cold and how callous. These dead exemplary on bald worth Japanese die in a horrible accident and these scientist are having belly laughs over the explanation put believed by the press. Does that seem sane to you. The person June Crain was of exemplary character helping to build her town liberty and building low income hosing. She successfully beat cancer twice and took care of her family after her husband died in a car accident. She also had an experience with a sergeant who had a very close up look at the bodies. "little green men" he described it as and he was scared...very scared. For me this is another futile effort on the gov. to distort or confuses the truth and for those people waiting on the government to "Disclose" please...please don't hold your breath.

    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters

    ReplyDelete
  14. Joseph
    Did you get my comment in reply to your wager and the comments you made about me making money?

    ReplyDelete
  15. No Nick I didn't, I received three comments including this one...all now published. Send them again I promise to publish them.
    Joe
    UFO Media Matters
    Non-Commercial Blog

    ReplyDelete
  16. Joe:

    As my original reply to the bet/wage didn't arrive, I'll send it again.

    I didn't save the original before I sent it, however; so I am writing a reply that is broadly in-keeping with the original that didn't arrive.

    I'm happy to go with a 50-Dollar wager by 2012.

    However, how do you define a smoking-gun?

    The reason I ask is as follows:

    Stan Friedman might say the Eisenhower Briefing Document is the smoking gun that proves MJ12 existed.

    Those who are skeptical of MJ12 would say otherwise.

    So, what defines a smoking gun and how will it be defined as definitive to win the bet?

    Is it only evidence that would cause those who believe aliens crashed at Roswell to change their minds?

    Even if I provide documented proof, how will it be defined if this documention is viewed as real or offcially crafted disinfo?

    I'm happy to have the 50-Dollar wager, but we do need the "smoking gun" angle defined.

    In another post, you bring up money and Ufology and make the same mistakes that many who are unaquinted with the UFO book-publishing field make.

    You say: "Nick and the rest have enough money to get a massage when they get stress out over such a brave move like writing a book on Roswell."

    WHAAAAT?!?!

    For the record, I have lived in the US for 8 years. Last year, 2007, was the first year I was able to afford (a) medical insurance; (b) a cell-phone; and (c) a car.

    Also, if you are ever in Dallas, feel free to let me know and please visit my home.

    It's not a house, or a sprawling designer apartment - in reality, it's an approx 25-foot-long by 15-foot wide room. Yes, a room.

    Now, before it's raised (or *if* it's raised): I am NOT complaining, because I personally chose the life of a freelance-writer and I've done so for 20 years.

    I'm just correcting the image that your comment incorrectly (and massively so) implies.

    But one or two authors and books aside, most UFO authors are very low down on the earnings scale if, like me, freelance writing is their only form of income.

    If they have a 9 to 5 job to fall back on, that's very different, of course.

    But relying on payment from books etc (unless the authors in question sell huge amounts of books), will typically result in...well...not much at all!!

    Hence my lack of cell-phone, car, and medical insurance for 7 years! So, no relaxing massages here, unfortunately.

    There is one advantage to this, however: with escalating gas prices, I know the Dallas bus-routes like the back of my hand!

    I would stress too that later this year, much more of a non-ET data on Roswell (and that has human experimentation at its heart) will surface into the UFO community.

    None of this is coming from me, I must stress, nor from my interviewees either.

    Far more significantly, it's coming from another source that has uncovered data that expands on mine.

    We may of course continue to disagree for years; however, I have to now consider it highly significant that I now have, and have published in Stuart Miller's "Alien Worlds" magazine two months ago, (A) FOIA files on bald-headed human, handicapped dwarves who were the subject of government radiation experiments in the summer of 1947; and (B) FOIA files on Unit 731 activity in Lincoln County, New Mexico (Lincoln County being where Brazel found the wreckage) in the 1940s.

    The interesting thing is that some of this material was actually declassified years ago.

    However, Roswell researchers failed to find it because it wasn't contained in UFO files.

    And mainstream historians who did see it, failed to recognize or understand its significance in a Roswell context, because they weren't familiar with Roswell lore.

    On another matter (the debris), I do believe that unusual materials were found.

    But, ask Vallee - years ago (in his book "Revelations") he discussed his knowledge of similar material that was in production in the late 40s.

    Would you say Vallee is not credible because he doesn't buy the UFO angle for Roswell? He published the data back in 1991.

    Also, I find it interesting that Marcel Sr. showed Marcel Jr. the I-beams with the unusual "writing" and inscriptions on.

    Yet, he didn't show him any of the memory metal.

    Many assume (quite wrongly, actually) that Marcel Jr. WAS shown the unique memory metal.

    However, he wasn't.

    Read, and listen, very carefully, to what he said. No memory metal in the Marcel house when Marcel Sr. showed the materials to his son.

    If I had made a decision to show my son the materials found at Roswell, I would have shown him amazing memory metal rather than I-beams. Or, rather, I would have shown him both.

    It could of course be argued that Marcel Sr. viewed the memory metal as being of greater security value. However, if that was so, why not conclude that the I-beams were of similar high security?

    One final matter: if the story fed to me was disinformation, what would prompt the government to come up with another theory on Roswell?

    I have mentioned this to people many times before: that pre-Body Snatchers, things of a Roswell nature were at stalemate.

    The UFO community said aliens and crashed spacecraft. And the official world said Mogul balloons and crash-test dummies.

    With Mogul and the dummies in place, why create *another* scenario (Japanese)? All this actually does is further raise suspicions that Mogul was a lie And that is a ludicrous and pointless exercise that actually only re-ignites the Roswell controversy.

    It's clear to me that the official world introduced Mogul and the dummies specifically to try and lay the controversy to rest. Reopening it a few years later is patently illogical.

    And on the matter of crashed UFOs and disinfo, have you read Greg Taylor's "Darklore" book, which was published last year?

    That includes a highly illuminating chapter on how crashed UFO data in the 40s may have been created at an official level, as per the intriguing story of Bernard Newman.

    That chapter is required reading for anyone and everyone interested in Roswell. And I do mean required reading. Absolutely essential.

    ReplyDelete
  17. why has no one ever checked the pics from the hydrographic off. that were sent to roswellto foto everythinf??????

    ReplyDelete
  18. Dear Nick,
    When you proved that is was launch on that date and crashed on the proper date in the field on Mack Brazil working ranch that would convince me.
    All UFO researchers shoot themselves in the foot. So these sighting of small bald "creatures" described by Roswell witnesses are dwarfs but the hundreds of sightings around the world of these same type "creatures" are mass hallucination, Oh I know they just happened to be a coincidence the ETS look like Japanese Dwarfs.
    Write-Patterson had mucho staff going on. June Crane worked at Write Patterson, she was there she handed a "piece of a spaceship" and described it the same way. Her close friend a sergeant saw the "little green men" And if this tragedy happened why was the scientist laughing with belly laughs over the balloon theory. June has more integrity according to her life then most of the UFO researchers combined and me too.

    If at Write-Patterson they had what you describe going on I hope it does come out. The flying saucers being witnesses and chased were not the flying wing. They exhibited characteristic which defy conventional technology to this day. The creatures being described long before the knowledge of Roswell confirm this type of entity. Nick come on... rumors are rumors. if that was doing this at Write would be rumors about it.I do not believe that if this was happening at Roswell at the time why their was not one Japanese experiment rumor from the death bed confessions or any place that for that matter.. Remember people programmed to hate the "Japs" then.
    I will pay the bet but my heart still goes to the witnesses... people I don't consider mistaken.

    Joseph Cap
    UFO Media Matters

    ReplyDelete
  19. Dear Anyonmous,
    Could you be clearer I don't quite understand.
    Joe
    UFO Media Matters

    ReplyDelete
  20. While anything is possible the problem I have with the theory that Nick wrote about is that its a long way around the mountain. Why was it necessary to concoct a extraterrestrial announcement as a straw dog when it could have been "buried" without it? And if the saucer announcement was a straw dog, why didnt they chose the weather balloon first? They had to have known the uproar a saucer crash would cause...and if the flying wing was the root cause, why draw more attention to themselves by making an outrageous claim? I have a hard time thinking they were this opaque.Jack Northrup building on the work of the Horton brothers, would have not been pleased if this were not a ruse as he fought tooth and nail for his "baby" which the air forces initially discarded after prototype trials until the B1. When Northrup was dying AF personnel received permission to show tell him about the B1...which pleased him no end.

    ReplyDelete
  21. Dear Bruce,
    I agree, it just doesn't ring true. I am so tired of the discounting of witnesses. The life blood of ever finding out what is going on is the witnesses. Let's include June Crain top stenographer for the scientist with a Q clearance above Top secret hasn't never mentions any rumor of this Northrop stuff. When she came out 45 years later it was anonymously but her anger at the lies of the governments conclusions on Roswell made her come forward in the public domain. If Northrop experiments were going on I believe she would had known, especially if they had progress far enough to the launch stage. When you get into detail of her friend the sergeant...the answer is plain "little green men"

    I think this is plain disinformation. It meets all the criteria of good disinfo. Actually documentation which suggest explanations, but never a smoking gun. Stanton Friedman has a few major problems with his theory also. The other day on the NBC 10 Best UFO whatever. I watched as Paul Shaffer disparaged the Trent family. He knows it was proven not to be a pie plate. The witnesses always get the short hand of the stick, if not from outside the UFO community then inside it.
    I have a feeling I'll be keeping my 50 bucks. Of course being honest with my self I have to admit I haven't won all bets I've made.
    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters

    ReplyDelete
  22. Joe

    So I have to *prove* my data to win. But for you to win, you don't have to do anything, aside from hoping I don't prove mine?

    That's not a bad bet - from your perspective!

    A far more equal bet would be that, for the same amount (50 Dollars) the winner is determined by whichever off us proves it.

    If I present firm evidence, I win 50 Dollars. If you present firm evidence of ET at Roswell, you win 50 Dollars.

    If neither, we each donate 25 Dollars to a charity.

    Since the bet was your idea, I do think that it should be on equal terms (and relevant to both of us) when it comes to providing proof.

    For the record, I have never dismissed any of the Roswell witnesses who we know were there.

    I don't dispute at all those who say they saw bodies or wreckage. What I dispute is their *interpretation* of what they were seeing.

    By the way, those Progeria FOIA files from the summer of 1947, did not just originate at Oak Ridge: they originated with the NEPA (nuke plane) project, which was based at Oak Ridge.

    Rather curiously, contained in the file (again this is all FOIA material) is an FBI document concerning a Colonel Clyde D. Gasser, who was the principal srmy technician at NEPA at Oak Ridge back then.

    The document talks about Gasser's knowledge of US attempts (in the 40s) to build and fly "flying discs."

    How curious that Gasser (tied to NEPA and Oak Ridge) had knowledge of US attempts to build and fly discs - and on top of that, that the relevant FBI document is stored in a file dealing with radiation experiments on people with progeria (small body, large head, no hair) in *the summer of 47...*

    People may not agree with my book, but given that this is all FOIA material, it has to be of some significance, given the time frame, circumstances, descriptions of the physical appearances of the people.

    Either that: or alien large-headed, hairless dwarves crashed their spacecraft *in the same time* (summer 47) that NEPA were talking about man-made discs and receiving radiation-files on human large headed, hairless dwarves...

    ReplyDelete
  23. Dear Nick,
    Nick many of us "know" stuff but when it comes to money on the line that "known stuff" becomes a belief system.


    I agree with all of the bet except with a condition.
    At the end(Dec 21 2008) if neither of us win, we write point counter point with one rebottle each On what we believe happened at Roswell... then(that's even if they know who I am then) we let people vote on who wins.
    Where ever you wish to post it is ok with me. God willing, we will both be alive and healthy, and for me, all of it will go to charity. Fair right, and important.

    Joe Cap
    UFO Media Matters

    ReplyDelete
  24. Ok, terms sound good re how we decide, and giving to charity etc.

    However, you are changing the dates massively.

    Your original wager said:

    "Dear Nick, let's just make a little bet, payable in 2012 Dec 21 10$ or 50$ ok."

    Now you're saying Dec. 21 of this year!

    I agreed to the 2012 date.

    Four years should be plenty of time to prove my case as material is coming in at a good rate, and there are at least 2 other books on the human angle of Roswell forthcoming.

    But you can't make a date for the bet with a 4-year deadline, and then (today) suddenly change it so I only have 7 months!

    I agreed to the 2012 date, and so that's the one we can go with.

    ReplyDelete
  25. Dear Nick,

    No, your right it was a typo.
    Sounds great thanks.

    Joe

    ReplyDelete
  26. Joe:

    I think my just-sent comment didn't go through.

    If it didn't, here's what it broadly said:

    I'm happy to go with the terms in the sense of: if there's no hard proof at the end of the bet we let people vote, and it all goes to charity. That's all cool to me.

    However...!

    When you offered me the bet, you wrote: "Dear Nick, let's just make a little bet, payable in 2012 Dec 21 10$ or 50$ ok."

    I was agreeable to that, because 2012 gives me 4 and a half years to prove my case, which should be ample time, given all the new data coming through - and the fact that 2 new books are being published on the human angle of Roswell (neither are by me).

    However, today you say "At the end(Dec 21 2008)..."

    You can't originally give me 4 and a half years to prove my case, and then - when I accept the terms - change it so I only have 7 months!

    I accepted the challenge based on the 2012 date.

    ReplyDelete
  27. So your saying that somehow, several individuals of Mongoloid extraction, all under the age of thirteen and all suffering from a disease in which there are only a little over one hundred documented cases (1866-2005), only 48 cases active at this time; Were rounded up and sent to New Mexico to be irradiated? The parents must have been overjoyed! Progeria is one of the rarest afflictions in medical history. I think this theory will self-destruct before any smoking gun is even loaded.

    ReplyDelete
  28. So that means their may be a way to find out how they died? Right.
    Joe
    UFO Media Matters

    ReplyDelete
  29. "Anonymous":
    No I'm not saying that at all. People may disagree with what I said in the book - and that's fine. But they should closely read what I said, based on what I was told.
    I was told that there were 6 or 7 experiments in NM in 47 (and possibly one or two in 46).
    If you read my book and specifically the chapter titled Desert Secrets, the source points out that the main Roswell event on the Foster ranch had *nothing* to do with handicapped people in any sense!
    It was a flight using Japanese POWs.
    In reality, several of the balloon flights involved handicapped people; others were perfectly normal POWs.
    And why focus just on progeria? The book makes it clear that people with various conditions were used. Why? because they were easier to get hold of, via asylums, hospitals etc.
    If you think that wouldn't happen, I have FOIA files that explicitly talk about how the nuclear aircraft people in the late 40s tried to get permission to use US prisoners in US prisons used in nuclear aircraft experiments. That's a pretty bleak and shocking scenario. But you can go to the National Archives and read those files.
    The level of human experimentation in the 40s and 50s was shocking.
    As for whether or not some people with progeria were used: yes, that's what I was told.
    However, for me at least, the most important development is that I now have FOIA files (released through the Freedom of Information Act, not by some MJ12 mail-drop scenario) confirming that people with progeria were subjected to radiation experiments at Oak Ridge in the summer of 47.
    Read my earlier comments in this thread and you'll see my info on the files and where my article on this new development was published.
    The article contains info on an interesting place called Fort Stanton, which is close to the Foster Ranch.
    Read the article I wrote on these new developments that actually leads to FOIA files linking Japan's Unit 731 with Lincoln County, where the Foster Ranch is!
    That FOIA documents now pinpoint Unit 731 activity in the same county where Brazel found the wreckage (and the 731 activity is 1940s too), is beyond coincidence.

    ReplyDelete
  30. Dear Nick,
    If something like this was happening at the same time at least one of the Roswell witnesses and supporting witnesses whould have heard rumons. The reason permission was neve given in The fourties when the "Japs" were hated the most, was because it was a very dumg idea. Hard to keep hidden and not even worth the return.
    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters

    ReplyDelete
  31. Joe:

    You wrote that if such experimentation was taking place, that "at least one of the Roswell witnesses and supporting witnesses whould [sic] have heard rumons [sic]."

    How can you confidently say that? If you said the witnesses "might have" known, or "could have" known, that's different.

    However, you said they "whould" [again sic] have known.

    You have just made a statement of opinion; that's all.

    There were countless wartime and post-war projects that were highly sensitive, and particularly so in New Mexico.

    Take also, for example, the nuclear aircraft project at Oak Ridge, TN. Although the project didn't really lead to anything of great significance, I have the files from the National Archives from the late 40s talking about how senior sources within the nuke plane project were frustrated and angry because they couldn't get permission to use American prisoners (in US jails) in the nuclear aircraft experiments!

    If US scientists and personnel attached to the nuclear aircraft project in the late 40s were trying to find a way to allow them to use *American* (emphasis added) prisoners in human aircraft experimentation, do you think they would have any qualms about using people from other nations or other ethnic backgrounds?

    ReplyDelete
  32. Dear Nick,
    Think about what you just said. They were about to use Americans but it was stopped. Now this was before the Nuremburg Trails(1946). After America and the world brought the Germans and Japanese to world trials on Atrocities. We hung Japanese officers for water boarding as war crimes. I would think someone would have said “no way”, even if you believe America was that horrible back then, for at least bad timing reasons.
    I would think that idea using prisoners of war for these test got as far as could. In fact I would think they would be even more sensitive at caring through on something like that because it would have been a propaganda nightmare for our a country that spearheaded these trials. Also no mention of using war prisoners for parachute test according to June Crain, it was our solders that died not just dummies. You know it easy to believe America was doing these things under this horrible regime but this was not the case during the end of the war. During the 50s we thought of ourselves as shinning light of the world. I really do believe many of our military were against war crimes.


    I also wish to quote from June handling of the material.

    “Okay it was Lieutenant Rose is the one that showed it to me, or Captain
    Wheeler, now, it could have been one or the other of those guys, cause
    they were both in personnel, personnel in ‘chutes. And uh, he walked in.
    And they always liked to rag me because they couldn’t figure me out. He
    threw it on my desk, and it was a piece, well it was a piece about...about
    this big...and it was...”

    “There, and it was bent like this. — And he says “ June, you’re good. Tear
    that thing apart, break that up.” And I took it and I bent it and I twisted it
    and I laid it back down, and it went (sound) got right back to the same
    shape. I got back to my desk and he said, “cut it. Cut it. Try cutting it.” I
    got on my desk. I got my scissors out and I snipped at it, and you know
    there was no way I could cut even cut that piece of metal. And it was as
    light as a feather. I had it in my hand and I couldn’t...I would say that it
    didn’t weight as much as these two (2) cards-----it wasn’t that heavy. It
    was so light but strong, and it was about the thickness would be about say,
    let’s see, there, no it would be about, it would be about that thick”

    “But it had no weight at all, it was like a feather. And so strong it was sort of
    a grayish, gun metal type of color, and you could see that on the inside that
    there was a different that there was coating on the outside of it. Both sides
    were the same and the insides seemed to have a sort of a lead colored,
    light lead colored center to it.”
    …I said “what is it?’ He said, “it’s a piece of a space ship.”
    When I, you know got through with it and I couldn’t do nothing with it I said,
    “well, what is it?” And he says, “piece of a space ship.” He said “I just
    came back from New Mexico and I brought it back with me.” See, he had
    no business having anything to do with it in the first place…”(So he was breaking security?)
    “Yes, he was. Definitely.”
    Nick as far as I am concerned you are spending your time on a wild goose chase. However I think we should say fifty for the bet after all ten dollars to a charity is nothing now I can't imagine where it will be in 2012
    Thank You
    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters
    Non-Commercial Blog

    ReplyDelete
  33. Joe

    Yes, the experiments were stopped (as all my sources said, and as I quoted them in the book - they said that the Japanese thing was a very controversial operation and was shut down in late 47).

    However, I have files from the nuclear aircraft people (FOIA files) dated as late as 1949 talking about how they wanted to renew human experimentation and tried to get permission to use US prisoners in nuclear aircraft experiments.

    So much for them having any Nuremberg-related qualms or worries!

    In other words, despite Nuremberg, the nuclear aircraft people were still trying to find every way they could to get around the law, and use human subjects in prototype aircraft situations at nearly the turn of the 1950s! They kept on and on trying to find ways to make it happen.

    You also said: "I would think someone would have said 'no way', even if you believe America was that horrible back then, for at least bad timing reasons."

    For the record, I have never thought that "America was that horrible back then." Or now.

    I think most people were very decent and honest - and I think that applies to today, too.

    I do, however, believe that there was a minority of people in the official world whose morals went out the window when it came to what they perceived as valuable military-human experimentation.

    You also say: "I would think that idea using prisoners of war for these test got as far as could. In fact I would think they would be even more sensitive at caring through on something like that because it would have been a propaganda nightmare for our a country that spearheaded these trials."

    Your logic is right on target. However, as I note above, the nuclear aircraft people either didn't share your logic or they arrogantly ignored it - hence why they kept pushing for ways to use US prisoners as far as late 1949.

    And I would stress we are not talking about the nuke-aircraft people wanting to use members of the military who had committed crimes.

    Rather, the nuke-aircraft people were trying to get permission (in 49) to use US *civilian* (emphasis added) prisoners in their experiments!

    The problem I have found (from my perspective and from the perspective of my book) is that many UFO researchers ignore the FOIA material (such as the above nuclear aircraft files, which anyone can go and read at the Archives in MD, by the way), simply because they cannot believe that elements of their government or military would do such things.

    I might add too that I have official FOIA files from the 50s where the military was talking about possiibly being able to acquire what it very distastefully termed "specimens" for use by the nuke-plane people, and other radiation-related experiments.

    And where do the files say the military could get these "specimens"?

    Answer: Manchuria...

    ReplyDelete
  34. Dear Nick,
    You have no evidence from the people that were there that this ever happened. If it was that controversial as you say it would have been all over the place. What you are talking about is weird with dwarfs being taken from Metal asylums, and prisoners of war being used...something that would surely have stood out. There would have been leaks if it had been in full operations at that time. Six hundred people investigated tons of supporting witnesses from the military and not one leak on this "horrible" war crimes act? unless you don't think grunts have any conscious. Doing this to prisoners of war right after Nuremberg hit the newspapers around the world would have stood out, like a waving red blanket at a bull. I know you don't think much about our military, America and our people but we did win the war because we were a little smarter and cared more then the people we fought...although I can't say that now for both of our countries.

    Also it is disgraceful how you labeled the book
    "The Horrible Truth at the Heart of the Roswell Story" as if it was truth rather then conjecture. Another thing if these great patriots "The Colonel and "The Black Widow", who provided you this information really care, let them come out and be recognized as June did. There is no way anyone would do anything about it. Let's face facts here.

    I am so tired of these "insiders" on both side not willing to be named. If they can't stand up for what a democracy is about then the hell with there stories and their secrets... were taking 60 years now.

    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters
    Non-Commercial Blog

    ReplyDelete
  35. Joe:

    You say: "I know you don't think much about our military, America and our people but we did win the war because we were a little smarter and cared more then the people we fought."

    Er...did you read what I said??? I said I'm sure most people (as in most countries!) in the US are honest and sincere. As my book pointed out (and, ironically, as my sources were at pains to stress in the book too!!), the project was a highly secret one, not at all endorsed by many, and closed down hastily when the atrocities involved became wider known!

    In other words, the people involved were a small minority - and those of a decent nature hastened its demise!!

    So, I have no problem with America, its military, or its people. Rather, I have a problem with a *very small* minority who committed unforgivable acts.

    Joe, you also say:

    "What you are talking about is weird with dwarfs being taken from Metal asylums, and prisoners of war being used...something that would surely have stood out. There would have been leaks if it had been in full operations at that time. Six hundred people investigated tons of supporting witnesses from the military and not one leak on this "horrible" war crimes act? unless you don't think grunts have any conscious. Doing this to prisoners of war right after Nuremberg hit the newspapers around the world would have stood out, like a waving red blanket at a bull."

    But you're missing the point: I HAVE the official FOIA files showing that the atomic aircraft people tried to do precisely that - get US citizens (in jail) and use them in aircraft experiments.

    Anyone reading this can go the Archives at MD and read the old files: terrible stuff from 49 along the lines of "How can we get to use US prisoners in nuclear aircraft experiments? Would we be more likely to get permission if we asked for life prisoners?"

    If you go to the Archives and read this, you really have to pinch yourself and realize we are not reading files from Dr. Mengele or similar.

    We are reading files generated by the NEPA (Nuclear Energy for Propulsion of Aircraft) and ANP (Aircraft Nuclear Project) ops.

    You say there would have been leaks. I say: why would there have been leaks?

    The nuclear aircraft files from the late 40s (about using US prisoners in atomic aircraft experiments - post-initial Nuremberg years, I might add) didn't leak out.

    In fact, they didn't surface (and were successfully hidden from the mainstream media and everyone else) for decades and until the "human radiation experiments" scandal broke in the 90s.

    I wouldn't call elements of tthe US military "grunts" as you did. But I do think that most military personnel in Roswell told what they saw faithfully from memory, but (A) had no awareness of what was going on at the time (do you think most lower-levels knew about Paperclip for example? No); and (B) interpreted it as possibly saucer related when it may have been far more controversial and far more down to earth.

    And, as I mentioned, 2 more books are coming out with far more data on the human angle of Roswell. None of this data is mine, I stress.

    One final note: do you know who was the main figure in getting all of Japan's Unit 731 files to the USA at the end of the War? General Charles Willoughby.

    Do you know who one of Willoughby's closest friends was?

    Col. Philip Corso...

    ReplyDelete
  36. Dear Nick,
    I never believed Corpso. Nor do I believe we've ever back engineer these objects. In fact I think he was disinformation. You have no boots on the ground. You have documents about proposals. You have no launch date. You have many people at Roswell with high clearance who didn't seem to know a thing about this. You have people at write who didn't know this. Even though it may be highly classified, when people get angry they talk...that is what "controversy" is about. So all these people who were at Roswell with high clearance were told they were taking ETs around or a balloon. That makes Matt Brazil a liar, his son a liar. Two dumb intelligence officers...a base Commander who couldn't tell material from a plane and a balloon. June Crain is now a liar. No way could the stuff she was handling been from here. You don't remember that far back unless it was completely different. Her Sergeant friend who's wedding she attended was seeing dwarfs not(they didn't have to be Japanese dwarfs do they) "little green men" as she was told. Major Macgregor who claimed he had a close look and they were not human was lying. Remember many people where there years after this happened yet not one off the cuff rumor reported. I know why for it was becuse it stayed on paper.
    But you have your vdocuments and some anonymous "insiders"... sure that equals, like your book title, states "The Horrible Truth Behind Roswell"!

    And please no more guilt by associating, like with Corpso, I've had enough of that with the Neo-Cons during this election.
    Joe Capp
    UFO Media Matters

    ReplyDelete
  37. Joe

    If I use the logic you use to counter my argument, I might as well say there's no proof aliens crashed either. No documents, no paper-trail: just opinions on what was found, or wasn't found.

    Or that there's no proof that a Mogul balloon crashed, or that dummies were recovered.

    And, as much as even I hate to admit it, Roswell is well on the way to becoming a ufological Jack the Ripper that might ultimately defy a definitive, provable answer.

    I would love to win the bet (as I'm sure you would too - and yes, re your earlier comment, I'm fine to make it a full Fifty Dollars donated to charity); but should any of us be surprised if the worst case scenario (namely, no resolution - ever) comes to pass? No.

    On that note, me and you can continue to debate this matter for weeks. However, I think that would bore everyone to death, and the best thing for me to do is focus on proving my case by 2012. And you vice-versa.

    Keep a look out for the 2 new "non-Nick" books on Roswell and human experimentation that are coming soon.

    I have repeatedly told you I do not consider the Roswell witnesses as liars (I have never made "liar" comments) - I personally think much of it is simply the personal interpretation on what they were seeing.

    A progeria victim laying in the NM desert for a day would (no disrespect to them) look odd, so would someone with Ellis Van Creveld.

    By the way: when you refer to "Matt Brazil" do you mean Mac Brazel?

    ReplyDelete
  38. Nick come on now have you ever read where Klass or Oberg or any other debunker ever called anyone a liar. In fact they are very careful not to do that. But either you imply that experts and American Heroes don't have the brains they were born with or were lying. As far as hard evidence piece of the saucer I know we don't. But I believe the eleven death bed confession, unless proved otherwise. It is the best explanation based on witness testimony. This does not mean they were from other worlds only that they were not us. Because their descriptions do not match a dwarf. I don't know if you have had an impossible experience you remember it always. I know someone who has Alzheimer now, he may forget alot, but he still remembers what happen in front of a radar scope when he saw UFOs.
    Yes in a way it is calling them a liar when you say that they don't know the difference between balsa wood or something very strange. They claim they couldn't cut it burn it or break it. Either they are all in on it or they are telling the truth...and Nick I will trust the people over the government any day.
    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters
    Non-Commercial Blog

    ReplyDelete
  39. Joe:

    Since this is slightly off the Roswell thread, I'll reply (I still think given there are now 37 comments, it's really time to focus on trying to secure the Roswell truth, not endless debating in this comment section, however).

    For the record, yes Klass has made comments suggesting liars. He implied Bill Moore faked the MJ12 Eisenhower Briefing Document, and he claimed that the Socorro case of 64 was cooked up to promote tourism in town!!

    For the record, there is no reason for me not to say people like Marcel etc were liars if I really thought they were - which I emphatically don't.

    The reason why there's no reason is because you cannot be held for libel for libelling a dead person.

    So, if I thought Brazel, or Marcel, or Ramey etc were lying I would simply say so - there's no legal reason (or otherwise) not to say so.

    I maintain (again!!!) that in my view (and this is my honest view - I'm not sure how many times I have to say this before it becomes clear!), those who said they saw bodies and materials did see what they claimed, but were mistaken in their interpretation - and were NOT liars!

    Again (yes, again!), seeing a dwarfish handicapped body laid out in the hot desert for a day or 2 might lead to all sorts of rumours.

    And let's not forget Melvin Brown said the bodies he saw could have passed for Chinese.

    Not that they had vaguely slanted eyes, or looked slightly asian, but could have "passed for" Chinese. That has to be a VERY close similarity to pass for a human, Chinese person....

    Read too what Vallee has uncovered re very unusual materials in use in the late 40s that ties in very close with what Marcel found. Or do you not find Vallee credible?

    ReplyDelete
  40. Dear Nick,
    And that's how it's always been. The witnesses have misidentified when ever it confidently disagrees with the latest theory. Since Arnold witnesses his "geese" flying over Mt. Rainer to the present case in Stephenville, the witnesses are just misidentifying. Not liars, just didn't see what they thought they did.

    I guess also all the witnesses that describe entities just like at Roswell are misidentifying too. They just happened to look like Japanese Dwarfs. In the end I guess we shouldn't believe anyone on UFOs. All of the witnesses could be misidentifying all this stuff. There are no UFOs just misidentification.
    As far as Vallee he was a great scientist an honest man, but unimaginative. He couldn't accept ETs could be even smarter then him and his physics.
    Good luck with the bet.

    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters

    ReplyDelete
  41. Joe

    For some reason, you take the approach of many ufologists: when I start saying I conclude that aliens didn't crash at Roswell, they get into the mode of (as you put it): "In the end I guess we shouldn't believe anyone on UFOs. All of the witnesses could be misidentifying all this stuff. There are no UFOs just misidentification."

    Nope. Not at all. I am a firm believer in UFOs and that some of them have truly unknown origins.

    There are countless good radar reports, pilot encounters, trace evidence, credible abduction stories, etc.

    However, I try and look at each case on its own merit - individually.

    Many people in Ufology assume that if someone doesn't believe aliens crashed at Roswell, that this means they don't think UFOs are real.

    I've never understood that approach.

    The problem with Roswell is that for many people it has become the Holy Grail of Ufology, and the case upon which much of the ETH (as it relates to Roswell) currently stands.

    And so, so there can be doubt: I am a firm believer in the existence of a real UFO phenomenon of unknown origins. I just don't think that that phenomenon crashed at Roswell.

    But why, as you say, that implies we should then throw out every case, is something thay always baffles me. It's interesting though that I hear it time and again: "Nick doesn't believe a UFO crashed at Roswell, so he doesn't believe in UFOs."

    It is actually possible to remove Roswell from the equation and still be a believer - the reason being there are so many good cases.

    But Roswell, I believe, will (if the truth does come out) be shown to be a Cold War embarrassment, not aliens.

    ReplyDelete
  42. Dear Nick,

    I've never said you don't believe something is here but I never heard a UFO investigator admit they may have been had. I believe Lynda Howe also has been had and you are both good investigators. Good disinformation has real elements to truth. If UFOs are known by the USA to be not us then it would be important to hide it. The MJ12 papers, no matter what we believe, was a master piece of work. I have friend from the government which although they won't tell me why, points out that some of the statements in the MJ12 documents(not UFO related) are still kept secret in the Atomic Energy Department...he also told me the MJ12 were faked but good.

    The need to divert researcher away from active Roswell witness investigation may have been of prime importance to some in the government. There were many people still alive then and maybe the government was frightened, forgot to tie some loose ends.
    Now it could have been they were trying to hide the experimental secret.
    What I was really pointing out is our visitors are the best solution to Roswell...because even before Roswell witnesses went public people were seeing these Roswell type entitles. Now they also know that this is how the Roswell witnesses described this entities to whoever they decided to share this with before this was known. Some of these entitles were even associated with saucer shaped craft, boarding to fly away.


    So if the Roswell witnesses were so mistaken why should we believe any witness because they could all be mistaken.

    I do not believe we had those type of metals back in the forties either unless they were captured. if these people couldn't tell that these bodies were human rather then something which was not us, then even witnesses with close observation could have been mistaken. In other words why should we believe anyone no matter how truthful they appear. The single answer(mistaken identify) to the witnesses problem can be used for any purpose possible, and has been used for just that. I believe the witnesses, I stand by them, especially when they are in groups and start saying the same thing. I also expect the government will continue to put out some good disinformation equal to the task at hand. As far as back engineering I think it was tried but other then ideas I don't think it happened. Although some believe these entitles are perfect I don't. They seem to have craft failure and they seem to make mistakes.

    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters

    ReplyDelete