tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post2126271592257901106..comments2024-02-16T04:16:01.502-05:00Comments on UFO Media Matters: Body Snatchers: Better as a Sci-Fi Film?Joseph Capphttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12428219762980782866noreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-33220649318411580112008-05-28T15:11:00.000-04:002008-05-28T15:11:00.000-04:00Dear Nick,I've never said you don't believe someth...Dear Nick,<BR/><BR/>I've never said you don't believe something is here but I never heard a UFO investigator admit they may have been had. I believe Lynda Howe also has been had and you are both good investigators. Good disinformation has real elements to truth. If UFOs are known by the USA to be not us then it would be important to hide it. The MJ12 papers, no matter what we believe, was a master piece of work. I have friend from the government which although they won't tell me why, points out that some of the statements in the MJ12 documents(not UFO related) are still kept secret in the Atomic Energy Department...he also told me the MJ12 were faked but good.<BR/><BR/>The need to divert researcher away from active Roswell witness investigation may have been of prime importance to some in the government. There were many people still alive then and maybe the government was frightened, forgot to tie some loose ends. <BR/> Now it could have been they were trying to hide the experimental secret. <BR/>What I was really pointing out is our visitors are the best solution to Roswell...because even before Roswell witnesses went public people were seeing these Roswell type entitles. Now they also know that this is how the Roswell witnesses described this entities to whoever they decided to share this with before this was known. Some of these entitles were even associated with saucer shaped craft, boarding to fly away. <BR/><BR/><BR/>So if the Roswell witnesses were so mistaken why should we believe any witness because they could all be mistaken. <BR/><BR/>I do not believe we had those type of metals back in the forties either unless they were captured. if these people couldn't tell that these bodies were human rather then something which was not us, then even witnesses with close observation could have been mistaken. In other words why should we believe anyone no matter how truthful they appear. The single answer(mistaken identify) to the witnesses problem can be used for any purpose possible, and has been used for just that. I believe the witnesses, I stand by them, especially when they are in groups and start saying the same thing. I also expect the government will continue to put out some good disinformation equal to the task at hand. As far as back engineering I think it was tried but other then ideas I don't think it happened. Although some believe these entitles are perfect I don't. They seem to have craft failure and they seem to make mistakes. <BR/><BR/>Joseph Capp<BR/>UFO Media MattersJoseph Capphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12428219762980782866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-19122899361801077912008-05-28T12:36:00.000-04:002008-05-28T12:36:00.000-04:00JoeFor some reason, you take the approach of many ...Joe<BR/><BR/>For some reason, you take the approach of many ufologists: when I start saying I conclude that aliens didn't crash at Roswell, they get into the mode of (as you put it): "In the end I guess we shouldn't believe anyone on UFOs. All of the witnesses could be misidentifying all this stuff. There are no UFOs just misidentification."<BR/><BR/>Nope. Not at all. I am a firm believer in UFOs and that some of them have truly unknown origins.<BR/><BR/>There are countless good radar reports, pilot encounters, trace evidence, credible abduction stories, etc.<BR/><BR/>However, I try and look at each case on its own merit - individually.<BR/><BR/>Many people in Ufology assume that if someone doesn't believe aliens crashed at Roswell, that this means they don't think UFOs are real.<BR/><BR/>I've never understood that approach.<BR/><BR/>The problem with Roswell is that for many people it has become the Holy Grail of Ufology, and the case upon which much of the ETH (as it relates to Roswell) currently stands.<BR/><BR/>And so, so there can be doubt: I am a firm believer in the existence of a real UFO phenomenon of unknown origins. I just don't think that that phenomenon crashed at Roswell.<BR/><BR/>But why, as you say, that implies we should then throw out every case, is something thay always baffles me. It's interesting though that I hear it time and again: "Nick doesn't believe a UFO crashed at Roswell, so he doesn't believe in UFOs."<BR/><BR/>It is actually possible to remove Roswell from the equation and still be a believer - the reason being there are so many good cases. <BR/><BR/>But Roswell, I believe, will (if the truth does come out) be shown to be a Cold War embarrassment, not aliens.Nick Redfernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07199813303416083671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-52498259946112162542008-05-27T23:17:00.000-04:002008-05-27T23:17:00.000-04:00Dear Nick,And that's how it's always been. The wit...Dear Nick,<BR/>And that's how it's always been. The witnesses have misidentified when ever it confidently disagrees with the latest theory. Since Arnold witnesses his "geese" flying over Mt. Rainer to the present case in Stephenville, the witnesses are just misidentifying. Not liars, just didn't see what they thought they did.<BR/><BR/> I guess also all the witnesses that describe entities just like at Roswell are misidentifying too. They just happened to look like Japanese Dwarfs. In the end I guess we shouldn't believe anyone on UFOs. All of the witnesses could be misidentifying all this stuff. There are no UFOs just misidentification. <BR/>As far as Vallee he was a great scientist an honest man, but unimaginative. He couldn't accept ETs could be even smarter then him and his physics. <BR/>Good luck with the bet.<BR/><BR/>Joseph Capp<BR/>UFO Media MattersJoseph Capphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12428219762980782866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-22929197515059287382008-05-27T20:39:00.000-04:002008-05-27T20:39:00.000-04:00Joe:Since this is slightly off the Roswell thread,...Joe:<BR/><BR/>Since this is slightly off the Roswell thread, I'll reply (I still think given there are now 37 comments, it's really time to focus on trying to secure the Roswell truth, not endless debating in this comment section, however).<BR/><BR/>For the record, yes Klass has made comments suggesting liars. He implied Bill Moore faked the MJ12 Eisenhower Briefing Document, and he claimed that the Socorro case of 64 was cooked up to promote tourism in town!!<BR/><BR/>For the record, there is no reason for me not to say people like Marcel etc were liars if I really thought they were - which I emphatically don't.<BR/><BR/>The reason why there's no reason is because you cannot be held for libel for libelling a dead person.<BR/><BR/>So, if I thought Brazel, or Marcel, or Ramey etc were lying I would simply say so - there's no legal reason (or otherwise) not to say so.<BR/><BR/>I maintain (again!!!) that in my view (and this is my honest view - I'm not sure how many times I have to say this before it becomes clear!), those who said they saw bodies and materials did see what they claimed, but were mistaken in their interpretation - and were NOT liars!<BR/><BR/>Again (yes, again!), seeing a dwarfish handicapped body laid out in the hot desert for a day or 2 might lead to all sorts of rumours.<BR/><BR/>And let's not forget Melvin Brown said the bodies he saw could have passed for Chinese. <BR/><BR/>Not that they had vaguely slanted eyes, or looked slightly asian, but could have "passed for" Chinese. That has to be a VERY close similarity to pass for a human, Chinese person....<BR/><BR/>Read too what Vallee has uncovered re very unusual materials in use in the late 40s that ties in very close with what Marcel found. Or do you not find Vallee credible?Nick Redfernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07199813303416083671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-81092702974262676052008-05-27T19:58:00.000-04:002008-05-27T19:58:00.000-04:00Nick come on now have you ever read where Klass or...Nick come on now have you ever read where Klass or Oberg or any other debunker ever called anyone a liar. In fact they are very careful not to do that. But either you imply that experts and American Heroes don't have the brains they were born with or were lying. As far as hard evidence piece of the saucer I know we don't. But I believe the eleven death bed confession, unless proved otherwise. It is the best explanation based on witness testimony. This does not mean they were from other worlds only that they were not us. Because their descriptions do not match a dwarf. I don't know if you have had an impossible experience you remember it always. I know someone who has Alzheimer now, he may forget alot, but he still remembers what happen in front of a radar scope when he saw UFOs. <BR/>Yes in a way it is calling them a liar when you say that they don't know the difference between balsa wood or something very strange. They claim they couldn't cut it burn it or break it. Either they are all in on it or they are telling the truth...and Nick I will trust the people over the government any day.<BR/>Joseph Capp<BR/>UFO Media Matters<BR/>Non-Commercial BlogJoseph Capphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12428219762980782866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-83586219168324163232008-05-27T18:53:00.000-04:002008-05-27T18:53:00.000-04:00JoeIf I use the logic you use to counter my argume...Joe<BR/><BR/>If I use the logic you use to counter my argument, I might as well say there's no proof aliens crashed either. No documents, no paper-trail: just opinions on what was found, or wasn't found.<BR/><BR/>Or that there's no proof that a Mogul balloon crashed, or that dummies were recovered.<BR/><BR/>And, as much as even I hate to admit it, Roswell is well on the way to becoming a ufological Jack the Ripper that might ultimately defy a definitive, provable answer.<BR/><BR/>I would love to win the bet (as I'm sure you would too - and yes, re your earlier comment, I'm fine to make it a full Fifty Dollars donated to charity); but should any of us be surprised if the worst case scenario (namely, no resolution - ever) comes to pass? No.<BR/><BR/>On that note, me and you can continue to debate this matter for weeks. However, I think that would bore everyone to death, and the best thing for me to do is focus on proving my case by 2012. And you vice-versa.<BR/><BR/>Keep a look out for the 2 new "non-Nick" books on Roswell and human experimentation that are coming soon.<BR/><BR/>I have repeatedly told you I do not consider the Roswell witnesses as liars (I have never made "liar" comments) - I personally think much of it is simply the personal interpretation on what they were seeing.<BR/><BR/>A progeria victim laying in the NM desert for a day would (no disrespect to them) look odd, so would someone with Ellis Van Creveld.<BR/><BR/>By the way: when you refer to "Matt Brazil" do you mean Mac Brazel?Nick Redfernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07199813303416083671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-25616892004816311762008-05-27T17:45:00.000-04:002008-05-27T17:45:00.000-04:00Dear Nick, I never believed Corpso. Nor do I belie...Dear Nick, <BR/>I never believed Corpso. Nor do I believe we've ever back engineer these objects. In fact I think he was disinformation. You have no boots on the ground. You have documents about proposals. You have no launch date. You have many people at Roswell with high clearance who didn't seem to know a thing about this. You have people at write who didn't know this. Even though it may be highly classified, when people get angry they talk...that is what "controversy" is about. So all these people who were at Roswell with high clearance were told they were taking ETs around or a balloon. That makes Matt Brazil a liar, his son a liar. Two dumb intelligence officers...a base Commander who couldn't tell material from a plane and a balloon. June Crain is now a liar. No way could the stuff she was handling been from here. You don't remember that far back unless it was completely different. Her Sergeant friend who's wedding she attended was seeing dwarfs not(they didn't have to be Japanese dwarfs do they) "little green men" as she was told. Major Macgregor who claimed he had a close look and they were not human was lying. Remember many people where there years after this happened yet not one off the cuff rumor reported. I know why for it was becuse it stayed on paper. <BR/> But you have your vdocuments and some anonymous "insiders"... sure that equals, like your book title, states "The Horrible Truth Behind Roswell"! <BR/><BR/>And please no more guilt by associating, like with Corpso, I've had enough of that with the Neo-Cons during this election. <BR/>Joe Capp<BR/>UFO Media MattersJoseph Capphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12428219762980782866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-4994130724476642772008-05-27T16:29:00.000-04:002008-05-27T16:29:00.000-04:00Joe:You say: "I know you don't think much about ou...Joe:<BR/><BR/>You say: "I know you don't think much about our military, America and our people but we did win the war because we were a little smarter and cared more then the people we fought."<BR/><BR/>Er...did you read what I said??? I said I'm sure most people (as in most countries!) in the US are honest and sincere. As my book pointed out (and, ironically, as my sources were at pains to stress in the book too!!), the project was a highly secret one, not at all endorsed by many, and closed down hastily when the atrocities involved became wider known!<BR/><BR/>In other words, the people involved were a small minority - and those of a decent nature hastened its demise!! <BR/><BR/>So, I have no problem with America, its military, or its people. Rather, I have a problem with a *very small* minority who committed unforgivable acts.<BR/><BR/>Joe, you also say: <BR/><BR/>"What you are talking about is weird with dwarfs being taken from Metal asylums, and prisoners of war being used...something that would surely have stood out. There would have been leaks if it had been in full operations at that time. Six hundred people investigated tons of supporting witnesses from the military and not one leak on this "horrible" war crimes act? unless you don't think grunts have any conscious. Doing this to prisoners of war right after Nuremberg hit the newspapers around the world would have stood out, like a waving red blanket at a bull."<BR/><BR/>But you're missing the point: I HAVE the official FOIA files showing that the atomic aircraft people tried to do precisely that - get US citizens (in jail) and use them in aircraft experiments.<BR/><BR/>Anyone reading this can go the Archives at MD and read the old files: terrible stuff from 49 along the lines of "How can we get to use US prisoners in nuclear aircraft experiments? Would we be more likely to get permission if we asked for life prisoners?"<BR/><BR/>If you go to the Archives and read this, you really have to pinch yourself and realize we are not reading files from Dr. Mengele or similar.<BR/><BR/>We are reading files generated by the NEPA (Nuclear Energy for Propulsion of Aircraft) and ANP (Aircraft Nuclear Project) ops.<BR/><BR/>You say there would have been leaks. I say: why would there have been leaks?<BR/><BR/>The nuclear aircraft files from the late 40s (about using US prisoners in atomic aircraft experiments - post-initial Nuremberg years, I might add) didn't leak out. <BR/><BR/>In fact, they didn't surface (and were successfully hidden from the mainstream media and everyone else) for decades and until the "human radiation experiments" scandal broke in the 90s.<BR/><BR/>I wouldn't call elements of tthe US military "grunts" as you did. But I do think that most military personnel in Roswell told what they saw faithfully from memory, but (A) had no awareness of what was going on at the time (do you think most lower-levels knew about Paperclip for example? No); and (B) interpreted it as possibly saucer related when it may have been far more controversial and far more down to earth.<BR/><BR/>And, as I mentioned, 2 more books are coming out with far more data on the human angle of Roswell. None of this data is mine, I stress.<BR/><BR/>One final note: do you know who was the main figure in getting all of Japan's Unit 731 files to the USA at the end of the War? General Charles Willoughby.<BR/><BR/>Do you know who one of Willoughby's closest friends was?<BR/><BR/>Col. Philip Corso...Nick Redfernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07199813303416083671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-30457753034647478522008-05-27T15:23:00.000-04:002008-05-27T15:23:00.000-04:00Dear Nick, You have no evidence from the people th...Dear Nick,<BR/> You have no evidence from the people that were there that this ever happened. If it was that controversial as you say it would have been all over the place. What you are talking about is weird with dwarfs being taken from Metal asylums, and prisoners of war being used...something that would surely have stood out. There would have been leaks if it had been in full operations at that time. Six hundred people investigated tons of supporting witnesses from the military and not one leak on this "horrible" war crimes act? unless you don't think grunts have any conscious. Doing this to prisoners of war right after Nuremberg hit the newspapers around the world would have stood out, like a waving red blanket at a bull. I know you don't think much about our military, America and our people but we did win the war because we were a little smarter and cared more then the people we fought...although I can't say that now for both of our countries. <BR/><BR/>Also it is disgraceful how you labeled the book<BR/>"The Horrible Truth at the Heart of the Roswell Story" as if it was truth rather then conjecture. Another thing if these great patriots "The Colonel and "The Black Widow", who provided you this information really care, let them come out and be recognized as June did. There is no way anyone would do anything about it. Let's face facts here. <BR/><BR/> I am so tired of these "insiders" on both side not willing to be named. If they can't stand up for what a democracy is about then the hell with there stories and their secrets... were taking 60 years now. <BR/><BR/>Joseph Capp<BR/>UFO Media Matters<BR/>Non-Commercial BlogJoseph Capphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12428219762980782866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-37363970340865321052008-05-27T11:27:00.000-04:002008-05-27T11:27:00.000-04:00JoeYes, the experiments were stopped (as all my so...Joe<BR/><BR/>Yes, the experiments were stopped (as all my sources said, and as I quoted them in the book - they said that the Japanese thing was a very controversial operation and was shut down in late 47).<BR/><BR/>However, I have files from the nuclear aircraft people (FOIA files) dated as late as 1949 talking about how they wanted to renew human experimentation and tried to get permission to use US prisoners in nuclear aircraft experiments. <BR/><BR/>So much for them having any Nuremberg-related qualms or worries!<BR/><BR/>In other words, despite Nuremberg, the nuclear aircraft people were still trying to find every way they could to get around the law, and use human subjects in prototype aircraft situations at nearly the turn of the 1950s! They kept on and on trying to find ways to make it happen.<BR/><BR/>You also said: "I would think someone would have said 'no way', even if you believe America was that horrible back then, for at least bad timing reasons."<BR/><BR/>For the record, I have never thought that "America was that horrible back then." Or now.<BR/><BR/>I think most people were very decent and honest - and I think that applies to today, too.<BR/><BR/>I do, however, believe that there was a minority of people in the official world whose morals went out the window when it came to what they perceived as valuable military-human experimentation. <BR/><BR/>You also say: "I would think that idea using prisoners of war for these test got as far as could. In fact I would think they would be even more sensitive at caring through on something like that because it would have been a propaganda nightmare for our a country that spearheaded these trials."<BR/><BR/>Your logic is right on target. However, as I note above, the nuclear aircraft people either didn't share your logic or they arrogantly ignored it - hence why they kept pushing for ways to use US prisoners as far as late 1949.<BR/><BR/>And I would stress we are not talking about the nuke-aircraft people wanting to use members of the military who had committed crimes.<BR/><BR/>Rather, the nuke-aircraft people were trying to get permission (in 49) to use US *civilian* (emphasis added) prisoners in their experiments!<BR/><BR/>The problem I have found (from my perspective and from the perspective of my book) is that many UFO researchers ignore the FOIA material (such as the above nuclear aircraft files, which anyone can go and read at the Archives in MD, by the way), simply because they cannot believe that elements of their government or military would do such things.<BR/><BR/>I might add too that I have official FOIA files from the 50s where the military was talking about possiibly being able to acquire what it very distastefully termed "specimens" for use by the nuke-plane people, and other radiation-related experiments. <BR/><BR/>And where do the files say the military could get these "specimens"?<BR/><BR/>Answer: Manchuria...Nick Redfernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07199813303416083671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-44261621515955271292008-05-27T10:16:00.000-04:002008-05-27T10:16:00.000-04:00Dear Nick,Think about what you just said. They wer...Dear Nick,<BR/>Think about what you just said. They were about to use Americans but it was stopped. Now this was before the Nuremburg Trails(1946). After America and the world brought the Germans and Japanese to world trials on Atrocities. We hung Japanese officers for water boarding as war crimes. I would think someone would have said “no way”, even if you believe America was that horrible back then, for at least bad timing reasons. <BR/> I would think that idea using prisoners of war for these test got as far as could. In fact I would think they would be even more sensitive at caring through on something like that because it would have been a propaganda nightmare for our a country that spearheaded these trials. Also no mention of using war prisoners for parachute test according to June Crain, it was our solders that died not just dummies. You know it easy to believe America was doing these things under this horrible regime but this was not the case during the end of the war. During the 50s we thought of ourselves as shinning light of the world. I really do believe many of our military were against war crimes. <BR/><BR/><BR/>I also wish to quote from June handling of the material.<BR/> <BR/>“Okay it was Lieutenant Rose is the one that showed it to me, or Captain<BR/>Wheeler, now, it could have been one or the other of those guys, cause<BR/>they were both in personnel, personnel in ‘chutes. And uh, he walked in.<BR/>And they always liked to rag me because they couldn’t figure me out. He<BR/>threw it on my desk, and it was a piece, well it was a piece about...about<BR/>this big...and it was...”<BR/><BR/>“There, and it was bent like this. — And he says “ June, you’re good. Tear<BR/>that thing apart, break that up.” And I took it and I bent it and I twisted it<BR/>and I laid it back down, and it went (sound) got right back to the same<BR/>shape. I got back to my desk and he said, “cut it. Cut it. Try cutting it.” I<BR/>got on my desk. I got my scissors out and I snipped at it, and you know<BR/>there was no way I could cut even cut that piece of metal. And it was as<BR/>light as a feather. I had it in my hand and I couldn’t...I would say that it<BR/>didn’t weight as much as these two (2) cards-----it wasn’t that heavy. It<BR/>was so light but strong, and it was about the thickness would be about say,<BR/>let’s see, there, no it would be about, it would be about that thick”<BR/><BR/>“But it had no weight at all, it was like a feather. And so strong it was sort of<BR/>a grayish, gun metal type of color, and you could see that on the inside that<BR/>there was a different that there was coating on the outside of it. Both sides<BR/>were the same and the insides seemed to have a sort of a lead colored,<BR/>light lead colored center to it.”<BR/>…I said “what is it?’ He said, “it’s a piece of a space ship.”<BR/>When I, you know got through with it and I couldn’t do nothing with it I said,<BR/>“well, what is it?” And he says, “piece of a space ship.” He said “I just<BR/>came back from New Mexico and I brought it back with me.” See, he had<BR/>no business having anything to do with it in the first place…”(So he was breaking security?)<BR/>“Yes, he was. Definitely.”<BR/>Nick as far as I am concerned you are spending your time on a wild goose chase. However I think we should say fifty for the bet after all ten dollars to a charity is nothing now I can't imagine where it will be in 2012<BR/>Thank You<BR/>Joseph Capp<BR/>UFO Media Matters<BR/>Non-Commercial BlogJoseph Capphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12428219762980782866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-52649390457079948992008-05-27T08:37:00.000-04:002008-05-27T08:37:00.000-04:00Joe:You wrote that if such experimentation was tak...Joe:<BR/><BR/>You wrote that if such experimentation was taking place, that "at least one of the Roswell witnesses and supporting witnesses whould [sic] have heard rumons [sic]."<BR/><BR/>How can you confidently say that? If you said the witnesses "might have" known, or "could have" known, that's different.<BR/><BR/>However, you said they "whould" [again sic] have known.<BR/><BR/>You have just made a statement of opinion; that's all.<BR/><BR/>There were countless wartime and post-war projects that were highly sensitive, and particularly so in New Mexico.<BR/><BR/>Take also, for example, the nuclear aircraft project at Oak Ridge, TN. Although the project didn't really lead to anything of great significance, I have the files from the National Archives from the late 40s talking about how senior sources within the nuke plane project were frustrated and angry because they couldn't get permission to use American prisoners (in US jails) in the nuclear aircraft experiments!<BR/><BR/>If US scientists and personnel attached to the nuclear aircraft project in the late 40s were trying to find a way to allow them to use *American* (emphasis added) prisoners in human aircraft experimentation, do you think they would have any qualms about using people from other nations or other ethnic backgrounds?Nick Redfernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07199813303416083671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-90942137858892482532008-05-25T11:59:00.000-04:002008-05-25T11:59:00.000-04:00"Anonymous":No I'm not saying that at all. People ..."Anonymous":<BR/>No I'm not saying that at all. People may disagree with what I said in the book - and that's fine. But they should closely read what I said, based on what I was told.<BR/>I was told that there were 6 or 7 experiments in NM in 47 (and possibly one or two in 46).<BR/>If you read my book and specifically the chapter titled Desert Secrets, the source points out that the main Roswell event on the Foster ranch had *nothing* to do with handicapped people in any sense!<BR/>It was a flight using Japanese POWs.<BR/>In reality, several of the balloon flights involved handicapped people; others were perfectly normal POWs.<BR/>And why focus just on progeria? The book makes it clear that people with various conditions were used. Why? because they were easier to get hold of, via asylums, hospitals etc.<BR/>If you think that wouldn't happen, I have FOIA files that explicitly talk about how the nuclear aircraft people in the late 40s tried to get permission to use US prisoners in US prisons used in nuclear aircraft experiments. That's a pretty bleak and shocking scenario. But you can go to the National Archives and read those files.<BR/>The level of human experimentation in the 40s and 50s was shocking.<BR/>As for whether or not some people with progeria were used: yes, that's what I was told.<BR/>However, for me at least, the most important development is that I now have FOIA files (released through the Freedom of Information Act, not by some MJ12 mail-drop scenario) confirming that people with progeria were subjected to radiation experiments at Oak Ridge in the summer of 47.<BR/>Read my earlier comments in this thread and you'll see my info on the files and where my article on this new development was published.<BR/>The article contains info on an interesting place called Fort Stanton, which is close to the Foster Ranch.<BR/>Read the article I wrote on these new developments that actually leads to FOIA files linking Japan's Unit 731 with Lincoln County, where the Foster Ranch is!<BR/>That FOIA documents now pinpoint Unit 731 activity in the same county where Brazel found the wreckage (and the 731 activity is 1940s too), is beyond coincidence.Nick Redfernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07199813303416083671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-5786665091318427942008-05-24T22:15:00.000-04:002008-05-24T22:15:00.000-04:00So that means their may be a way to find out how t...So that means their may be a way to find out how they died? Right.<BR/>Joe<BR/>UFO Media MattersJoseph Capphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12428219762980782866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-39042769545835089332008-05-24T20:07:00.000-04:002008-05-24T20:07:00.000-04:00So your saying that somehow, several individuals o...So your saying that somehow, several individuals of Mongoloid extraction, all under the age of thirteen and all suffering from a disease in which there are only a little over one hundred documented cases (1866-2005), only 48 cases active at this time; Were rounded up and sent to New Mexico to be irradiated? The parents must have been overjoyed! Progeria is one of the rarest afflictions in medical history. I think this theory will self-destruct before any smoking gun is even loaded.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-65218832728088690692008-05-23T14:30:00.000-04:002008-05-23T14:30:00.000-04:00Joe:I think my just-sent comment didn't go through...Joe:<BR/><BR/>I think my just-sent comment didn't go through.<BR/><BR/>If it didn't, here's what it broadly said:<BR/><BR/>I'm happy to go with the terms in the sense of: if there's no hard proof at the end of the bet we let people vote, and it all goes to charity. That's all cool to me.<BR/><BR/>However...!<BR/><BR/>When you offered me the bet, you wrote: "Dear Nick, let's just make a little bet, payable in 2012 Dec 21 10$ or 50$ ok."<BR/><BR/>I was agreeable to that, because 2012 gives me 4 and a half years to prove my case, which should be ample time, given all the new data coming through - and the fact that 2 new books are being published on the human angle of Roswell (neither are by me).<BR/><BR/>However, today you say "At the end(Dec 21 2008)..."<BR/><BR/>You can't originally give me 4 and a half years to prove my case, and then - when I accept the terms - change it so I only have 7 months!<BR/><BR/>I accepted the challenge based on the 2012 date.Nick Redfernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07199813303416083671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-16821645396692844162008-05-23T14:26:00.000-04:002008-05-23T14:26:00.000-04:00Dear Nick,No, your right it was a typo. Sounds g...Dear Nick,<BR/><BR/>No, your right it was a typo. <BR/>Sounds great thanks.<BR/><BR/>JoeJoseph Capphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12428219762980782866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-28801633986081406372008-05-23T14:23:00.000-04:002008-05-23T14:23:00.000-04:00Ok, terms sound good re how we decide, and giving ...Ok, terms sound good re how we decide, and giving to charity etc. <BR/><BR/>However, you are changing the dates massively.<BR/><BR/>Your original wager said:<BR/><BR/>"Dear Nick, let's just make a little bet, payable in 2012 Dec 21 10$ or 50$ ok."<BR/><BR/>Now you're saying Dec. 21 of this year! <BR/><BR/>I agreed to the 2012 date. <BR/><BR/>Four years should be plenty of time to prove my case as material is coming in at a good rate, and there are at least 2 other books on the human angle of Roswell forthcoming.<BR/><BR/>But you can't make a date for the bet with a 4-year deadline, and then (today) suddenly change it so I only have 7 months!<BR/><BR/>I agreed to the 2012 date, and so that's the one we can go with.Nick Redfernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07199813303416083671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-23486972897103852082008-05-23T14:08:00.000-04:002008-05-23T14:08:00.000-04:00Dear Nick, Nick many of us "know" stuff but when...Dear Nick, <BR/> Nick many of us "know" stuff but when it comes to money on the line that "known stuff" becomes a belief system. <BR/><BR/><BR/>I agree with all of the bet except with a condition. <BR/>At the end(Dec 21 2008) if neither of us win, we write point counter point with one rebottle each On what we believe happened at Roswell... then(that's even if they know who I am then) we let people vote on who wins. <BR/>Where ever you wish to post it is ok with me. God willing, we will both be alive and healthy, and for me, all of it will go to charity. Fair right, and important. <BR/><BR/>Joe Cap<BR/>UFO Media MattersJoseph Capphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12428219762980782866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-1669546837655157542008-05-23T12:04:00.000-04:002008-05-23T12:04:00.000-04:00JoeSo I have to *prove* my data to win. But for yo...Joe<BR/><BR/>So I have to *prove* my data to win. But for you to win, you don't have to do anything, aside from hoping I don't prove mine?<BR/><BR/>That's not a bad bet - from your perspective!<BR/><BR/>A far more equal bet would be that, for the same amount (50 Dollars) the winner is determined by whichever off us proves it.<BR/><BR/>If I present firm evidence, I win 50 Dollars. If you present firm evidence of ET at Roswell, you win 50 Dollars.<BR/><BR/>If neither, we each donate 25 Dollars to a charity.<BR/><BR/>Since the bet was your idea, I do think that it should be on equal terms (and relevant to both of us) when it comes to providing proof.<BR/><BR/>For the record, I have never dismissed any of the Roswell witnesses who we know were there.<BR/><BR/>I don't dispute at all those who say they saw bodies or wreckage. What I dispute is their *interpretation* of what they were seeing.<BR/><BR/>By the way, those Progeria FOIA files from the summer of 1947, did not just originate at Oak Ridge: they originated with the NEPA (nuke plane) project, which was based at Oak Ridge.<BR/><BR/>Rather curiously, contained in the file (again this is all FOIA material) is an FBI document concerning a Colonel Clyde D. Gasser, who was the principal srmy technician at NEPA at Oak Ridge back then.<BR/><BR/>The document talks about Gasser's knowledge of US attempts (in the 40s) to build and fly "flying discs."<BR/><BR/>How curious that Gasser (tied to NEPA and Oak Ridge) had knowledge of US attempts to build and fly discs - and on top of that, that the relevant FBI document is stored in a file dealing with radiation experiments on people with progeria (small body, large head, no hair) in *the summer of 47...*<BR/><BR/>People may not agree with my book, but given that this is all FOIA material, it has to be of some significance, given the time frame, circumstances, descriptions of the physical appearances of the people.<BR/><BR/>Either that: or alien large-headed, hairless dwarves crashed their spacecraft *in the same time* (summer 47) that NEPA were talking about man-made discs and receiving radiation-files on human large headed, hairless dwarves...Nick Redfernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07199813303416083671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-57094298598467468672008-05-19T23:15:00.000-04:002008-05-19T23:15:00.000-04:00Dear Bruce,I agree, it just doesn't ring true. I a...Dear Bruce,<BR/>I agree, it just doesn't ring true. I am so tired of the discounting of witnesses. The life blood of ever finding out what is going on is the witnesses. Let's include June Crain top stenographer for the scientist with a Q clearance above Top secret hasn't never mentions any rumor of this Northrop stuff. When she came out 45 years later it was anonymously but her anger at the lies of the governments conclusions on Roswell made her come forward in the public domain. If Northrop experiments were going on I believe she would had known, especially if they had progress far enough to the launch stage. When you get into detail of her friend the sergeant...the answer is plain "little green men"<BR/><BR/>I think this is plain disinformation. It meets all the criteria of good disinfo. Actually documentation which suggest explanations, but never a smoking gun. Stanton Friedman has a few major problems with his theory also. The other day on the NBC 10 Best UFO whatever. I watched as Paul Shaffer disparaged the Trent family. He knows it was proven not to be a pie plate. The witnesses always get the short hand of the stick, if not from outside the UFO community then inside it. <BR/> I have a feeling I'll be keeping my 50 bucks. Of course being honest with my self I have to admit I haven't won all bets I've made.<BR/>Joseph Capp<BR/>UFO Media MattersJoseph Capphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12428219762980782866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-37249829702963802992008-05-19T21:31:00.000-04:002008-05-19T21:31:00.000-04:00While anything is possible the problem I have with...While anything is possible the problem I have with the theory that Nick wrote about is that its a long way around the mountain. Why was it necessary to concoct a extraterrestrial announcement as a straw dog when it could have been "buried" without it? And if the saucer announcement was a straw dog, why didnt they chose the weather balloon first? They had to have known the uproar a saucer crash would cause...and if the flying wing was the root cause, why draw more attention to themselves by making an outrageous claim? I have a hard time thinking they were this opaque.Jack Northrup building on the work of the Horton brothers, would have not been pleased if this were not a ruse as he fought tooth and nail for his "baby" which the air forces initially discarded after prototype trials until the B1. When Northrup was dying AF personnel received permission to show tell him about the B1...which pleased him no end.Bruce Duensinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06770861553045757360noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-11577735375150377072008-05-19T16:45:00.000-04:002008-05-19T16:45:00.000-04:00Dear Anyonmous,Could you be clearer I don't quite ...Dear Anyonmous,<BR/>Could you be clearer I don't quite understand.<BR/>Joe<BR/>UFO Media MattersJoseph Capphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12428219762980782866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-78594411641507429702008-05-19T16:05:00.000-04:002008-05-19T16:05:00.000-04:00Dear Nick,When you proved that is was launch on th...Dear Nick,<BR/>When you proved that is was launch on that date and crashed on the proper date in the field on Mack Brazil working ranch that would convince me. <BR/>All UFO researchers shoot themselves in the foot. So these sighting of small bald "creatures" described by Roswell witnesses are dwarfs but the hundreds of sightings around the world of these same type "creatures" are mass hallucination, Oh I know they just happened to be a coincidence the ETS look like Japanese Dwarfs.<BR/> Write-Patterson had mucho staff going on. June Crane worked at Write Patterson, she was there she handed a "piece of a spaceship" and described it the same way. Her close friend a sergeant saw the "little green men" And if this tragedy happened why was the scientist laughing with belly laughs over the balloon theory. June has more integrity according to her life then most of the UFO researchers combined and me too.<BR/><BR/> If at Write-Patterson they had what you describe going on I hope it does come out. The flying saucers being witnesses and chased were not the flying wing. They exhibited characteristic which defy conventional technology to this day. The creatures being described long before the knowledge of Roswell confirm this type of entity. Nick come on... rumors are rumors. if that was doing this at Write would be rumors about it.I do not believe that if this was happening at Roswell at the time why their was not one Japanese experiment rumor from the death bed confessions or any place that for that matter.. Remember people programmed to hate the "Japs" then.<BR/>I will pay the bet but my heart still goes to the witnesses... people I don't consider mistaken.<BR/><BR/>Joseph Cap<BR/>UFO Media MattersJoseph Capphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12428219762980782866noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6624008755912934271.post-87386256014813419882008-05-19T02:06:00.000-04:002008-05-19T02:06:00.000-04:00why has no one ever checked the pics from the hydr...why has no one ever checked the pics from the hydrographic off. that were sent to roswellto foto everythinf??????Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com