Saturday, March 10, 2007

The Real Proof On Roswell Part II

Joseph Capp

To paraphrase Bob Dylan “Blowing In The Wind”:

“How many times does the truth need be told, before it is deem to be true”.

The Testimony
-Mac Brazel, the man who found the debris, was described by neighbors as both private and having integrity. Think about this: a week later, after the weather balloon story was successfully used, Mr. Brazel mentioned to his close friends and his son the truth about what the military actually told him, and how they really felt about the “MOGUL BALLOON”.

“Dad once said that the Army had once told him it was not anything made by us.”

“[Mac] made it plain he was not supposed to tell that there was any excitement about the material he found on the ranch”

So at what IQ would level would you have to be to discover balsa wood and tin foil are not balsa wood and tin foil?

William Brazel, son of the rancher, Mac Brasel who originally retrieved the wreckage from his sheep ranch stated:

“One of the pieces [looked like] something on the order of tinfoil, except that [it] wouldn't tear.... You could wrinkle it and lay it back down and it immediately resumed its original shape... quite pliable, but you couldn't crease or bend it like ordinary metal. Almost like a plastic, but definitely metallic. Dad once said that the Army had once told him it was not anything made by us.

“The ‘string’, I couldn't break it. The only reason I noticed the tinfoil (I'm gonna call it tinfoil), I picked this stuff up and put it in my chaps pocket. Might be two or three days or a week before I took it out and put it in a cigar box. I happened to notice when I put that piece of foil in that box, and the damn thing just started unfolding and just flattened out. “Then I got to playing with it. I'd fold it, crease it, lay it down and it'd unfold. It's kinda weird. I couldn't tear it. The color was in between tinfoil and lead foil, about the [thickness] of lead foil.

“Some of it was like balsa wood: real light and kind of neutral color, more of a tan. To the best of my memory, there wasn't any grain in it. Couldn't break it, it'd flex a little. I couldn't whittle it with my pocket knife.”

-Let’s think on this statement a minute. I worked with balsa wood and it was like no other material in the world, at least at that time. I don’t know about you but I also whittled as a young man. Any whittler knows you need a sharp blade. No one is going to tell me he shouldn't’t have been able to cut a piece of balsa wood, even with the explanation of a coating on the balsa wood that some debunkers claimed explained this. I wondered how many of the debunkers ever whittled.

- Mac’s son said of the tin foil material –“you couldn't’t crease it like regular tin foil – you couldn't’ cut it – you couldn't’tear it – and it unfolded to its original position”. In essence, here is a young teen who was trying to describe what the material was and wasn't used on his own knowledge and experience.

-The statement by Mac, “they told him it was not of this world” has been repeated by researchers many times, but I ask you now to look at this statement in regard to the person he became, frightened. He never talked about the incident. It is so logical given his personality as described by those who were close to him, that the only people he would confide in were his son and some close friends.

-Why would a person in the military tell Mac this “it was not of this world”? I will always believe harassing US citizens dose not sit well with many in the armed forces. Yes, there are evil people in the armed forces, like anywhere else, but this was 1947. We fought a war that was needed for freedom. It does not stretch my imagination that someone in the military was trying to give this man a good reason why they were putting him through this. I think he already knew what it was. Of course, some would like you to think ranchers are stupid.

-If you don’t trust Mac and his son’s word, remember June Crain who worked at Wright Patterson Air Base, the base the material was shipped to. She handled a piece of the “spaceship”: material:

“…and I took it [piece of the spaceship] and I bent it and I twisted it and I laid it back down, and it went [sound] got right back to the same shape.” June Crain*

Lydia Sleppy, Teletype Operator:
“[Unknown]...went back and asked Mr. [Karl] Lambertz (he came up from the big Dallas station) if he would come up and watch. John was dictating and [Karl] was standing right at my shoulder. I got into it enough to know that it was a pretty big story, when the bell came on [signaling an interruption]. Typing came across: "This is the FBI, you will cease transmitting."

-Why was the FBI involved with a balloon story? Why was MOGUL balloon, a classified project at that time, reported in the local newspapers the next week as an

Unclassified project might be reported. The articles in various local papers in July, 1947 had nothing to do with “the crash”, just articles on the balloons launches.)

Walt Whitmore, Jr., Son of Radio Station Operator:
“[It was] very much like lead foil in appearance but could not be torn or cut at all. Extremely light in weight. Some small beams that appeared to be either wood or wood-like had a sort of writing on it which looked like numbers which had either been added or multiplied [in columns].”

-I just read an article about the mass hysteria around UFOs including Roswell. In fact the witnesses were curious, not hysterical. In all of the reports from researchers not one witness was described as hysterical.

Bill Rickett , Counter Intelligence Corps officer, was based in Roswell:
“[The material] was very strong and very light. You could bend it but couldn't crease it. As far as I know, no one ever figured out what it was made of....”

-Boy - according to the debunkers we were lucky to win the war with these idiots, mistaking a balloon with radar detectors for an exotic unknown material. I guess we had just bungled into winning WWII. Our soldiers deserve more respect than that.

Loretta Proctor, Mac Brazel's nearest neighbor: “ The piece he brought looked like a kind of tan, light brown plastic. It was very lightweight, like balsa wood. It wasn't a large piece, maybe about four inches long, maybe just a little larger than a pencil. We cut on it with a knife and would hold a match on it, and it wouldn't burn. We knew it wasn't wood. It was smooth like plastic, it didn't have a real sharp corners, kind of like a dowel stick. Kind of dark tan. It didn't have any grain, just smooth. I hadn't seen anything like it.”

Marian Strickland was a neighbor of Mac Brazel. She was interviewed in 1990:
-“[Mac] made it plain he was not supposed to tell that there was any excitement about the material he found on the ranch. He was a man who had integrity. He definitely felt insulted and misused, and disrespected. He was worse than annoyed. He was definitely under some stress, and felt that he had been kicked around. He was threatened that if he opened his mouth, he might get thrown in the back side of the jail. He gave that impression, definitely.”

- Excitement over the MOGUL balloon material? The military kept him for a week after releasing the balloon explanation. Why were they still warning him not to speak about the excitement? If it were only a balloon, and the story was already out there to dismiss the flying saucer, what were they still excited about?

-The roll call of Roswell witnesses is important. Important to the accuracy of the data originally collected by civilians and military, and their immediate families-- who saw and handled the craft materials, and who managed the clean-up operation directly, or who were simply doing the small, necessary tasks in their rank-and-file jobs on the base.

Taking a second look at the Roswell roll call helps me focus on the importance of the testimony given by everyday people. Remember, military intelligence uses your average dependable person as a sources of information in foreign countries and even in our own country today. If the Roswell witnesses were reporting anything else but a UFO crash, they would be given credence and respect. But now they are idiots. They want us to believe these people could not cut simple tin foil or break balsa wood or even cut string.

And even today, we have a UFO witness roll call –the pilots, mechanics and senior management working at the O’Hare airport. We can honestly say there is no discrimination in attacking a UFO witness. You can be an average person with integrity or a pilot with integrity. If you report a UFO you are only a curiosity to the media, an annoyance to our government (at least publicly) and to the debunkers you are stupid or a fool or a liar.

To end this I once again paraphrase Bob Dylan song, (to be sung to the tune of …”):

“The debunkers, my friend, are blowing lots of gas
The debunkers are blowing lots of gas.”

The Blog RRR Group posted a possible "third Trent photo "attempting to imply the object may be small therefore the Trents were hoaxers.
I posted but then when I tried to post a link to
Dr. Bruce Maccabees rebuttal to Klass
and Sheaffers criticism of the Trents photos
and his personal feeling as to the possible motive and
integrity of the Trents
- they were never posted on RRR blog, so here it is:

UFO Media Matters

Off topic: Please remember what happened at Walter Reed Hospital to our returning wounded in building #18 . The media and the government should never be allowed to believe this is a forgotten story.


  1. Joseph,

    We never received your Maccabee rejoinder to the Klass/Sheaffer material.

    Otherwise we would have put it online.

    Comment it again, please.

  2. I enjoyed your common sense perspective rather than making typeface or document formatting the locus of this free-floating history borne by little else other than dialog from either side of the yes it is-no or no it is not fence. Opinion has a nasty habit of doing that. However, for that reason, putting alot of energy invested in a make or break case for the existance of extraterrestrial vehicles is a fools errand. This becomes increasingly apparent as the calendar pages fall off , measured in decades. It's an inadvertant misdirection of attention from the increasingly "agressive" or better put as increasingly visible 500 pound elephant in the room with us which the scientific community, whilst burying it's head in the sand, has left it's collective posterior exposed. Sooner rather than later, they will doth protest too much to the point where their behavior is seen currently as trending toward absurdity in its denial.The public is not as mistrusting of Ocam's razor. They are here.

  3. Dear Bruce,
    This is what my Blog is about. We need to start to get angry at how the reputation of some of the witnesses are trashed. Yes people lie. But does that always have to be assumed. this is the usual claim by the debunkers as far as clear cut testimony of a craft is concerned. 5000 UFO landing trace cases. God forbid your a farmer and you see one of these things.
    You have whole families called hoaxers. Some of these "country bumpkins" produce pictures that are still argued, over thirty plus years later. We also have 5000 UFO landing sites that baffle the labs and experts. Some Country Bunkums" You can't solve a puzzle if you leave out the people who experience this. It is one part of the equation that will not go away - because it is happening now.

    It is time to stand up to the trashing of our main resource to this phenomenon.
    The UFO witness.

    Thanks Again
    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters

  4. Dear RRR Group,
    I tried the post twice. I know that happens. Of course I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I just hope you spend the time and effort in proving your "New Trent Photo" real as Dr. Bruce Maccabee spent in proving Klass and Sheaffer wrong.
    Here is the good Doctors rebuttal. If you want to be fair post it yourself on your blog.
    Thank You
    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters

  5. What I find interesting about the on-going Roswell debate is an issue that few have commented on.

    A couple of months back, a new documentary was aired on Roswell and Jesse Marcel, Jr. was interviewed.

    He confirmed that he *never* saw the unique "memory metal" that others reported seeing.

    Marcel confirmed that his father did show him foil-like materials, and I-beams, but not the memory metal. Isn't that strange?

    If really weird materials were found at Roswell and Marcel Sr. wanted to show his son the amazing debris he had recovered for the USAAF, wouldn't the memory metal have been - above all else - the one thing he *would* have shown his son?

    Of course, it could be that Marcel decided to hold back from showing that to his son for secutity reasons (if aliens did really crash). But to me that makes no sense, taking into consideration that he had no problems showing him the i-beams and foil.

  6. Dear Mr. Redfern,
    Thank you for the good work you have done in the UFO field.
    He did wake his son and daughter in the middle of the night(if I remember correctly). I don't think his daughter remember the writing on the I beams if I have it right.
    If five people saw a murder and one woke up in the middle of the night and wasn't sure, you would still have the other witnesses to contend with. In one instance Brazel son held it for a day or two before he realized the apparent anomaly with the foil.
    I wouldn't want to be the accused in any case with some of those witnesses. I think some of them were real detail oriented types personality.
    Thank You for your comment.

    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters
    Ps I would really enjoy interviewing you by E-mail on the some UFO groups attending conferences. I know your an accessible figure in the field. If you decide please e-mail me so I can send you some question for a future post.
    Thank You again.

  7. Just wanted to drop you a note about using Blog aggregator, to find updates in dozens of UFO-related blogs and sites (if you prefer to do it with a Web interface).

  8. I agree that there is indeed other witness testimony re the memory metal. But I just find it ununsual that Marcel Sr showed his son the foil and I-beams, but (by Marcel Jr.'s own admission) his father never showed him the memory metal.

    I find that unusual. If the father was prepared to reveal the debris to his son, why not show if something really mind-blowing if it had been recovered - namely the memory metal?

  9. Joseph

    Yes, an interview is fine. You can contact me at my blog to arrange it (

    Nick R.

  10. Dear Nick,

    I hope I can call you by your first name. I think, using common sense, I can understand why the boy did not try crumple the material. Why Marcel didn't point this out the memory metal could of had to do with nothing more than exhaustion from the long ride. Sometimes people behave in unpredictable ways and truthfully if that type of behavior wasn't part of some of the Roswell history I would really think something was amiss.

    Witness defiantly deal with this stuff in different ways. One women at a conference(social worker) told me of an experience. "My husband saw it(an orange orb that was ahead of their car and eventually streaked on off out of sight) at the time he admitted seeing it with me. But later on he would not admit he saw it. He had always been a skeptic and I think it frighten him" There was other witnesses who did not notice the property. But I believe the military knew and I don't believe Marcel and the commander of the base could not recognize blindfolded, balloons fragments. The military and others were launching , I think up to 300 hundred different balloons a day were launched according to one estimate . What is the difference if one had ten balloons and two radar detectors or two balloons and one radar detector. They were all made out of the same material. Why wasn't there one skeptic in the military who didn't just break the balsa wood to show it was nothing.

    Don't tell me there are not skeptics all the throughout the intelligence community in the forties they had dealt with NAZI propaganda all throughout the second world war.

    Thanks You
    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters.

    I will e-mail you when with the questions as soon as I write them.
    Thank you again.

  11. Dear Futures,

    I will take a close look at this I wonder if it has a searchable database.

    Any more goodies?

    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Mattes

  12. Joseph:

    It could indeed have been exhaustion that led Marcel Sr. not to show his son how the debris he had retrieved was unlike anything anyone on Earth had ever seen before.

    However, I think a person would have to be exhausted nearly to the point of death to forget something like that!

    The fact is that Marcel Sr. showed his son foil and I-beams, but made no attempt to inform of the memory metal.

    Certainly, security issues may have been playing on Marcel Sr's mind (although we know he had no such concerns re showing his son the I-beams); but we still have that nagging question: if extraordinary memory metal was found (and given that Marcel was open with his son about showing him the material), why was that the one thing that Marcel Sr, did *not* show to his son?

  13. Dear Mr. Redfern,
    You didn't say I can call you Nick. I agree with you it is a mystery. When that happens I go back to the source. Major Marcel:
    He said the material was:
    "not of this earth"
    What happened to Lt. Col. Marcel after the reserves:

    .. he was decommissioned, and was soon transferred to Washington D.C. in August 1948 for higher intelligence work. First he was made the SAC (Strategic Air Command) Chief of a foreign technology intelligence division, an odd assignment for somebody who allegedly couldn't identify even mundane balloon debris. Then at the Pentagon's insistence, he was soon transferred to the Top Secret Special Weapons Project, given access to highly sensitive material, and served as the primary briefing officer for the higher brass in the project. There he also received two highly laudatory evaluations. Obviously the Air Force continued to feel Marcel was an extremely competent and trustworthy intelligence officer following the Roswell incident. None of this fits the profile of someone who badly bungled his intelligence job at Roswell, as the debunkers contend.
    I think Marcel who was promoted to Lt Col. was smart and honest. So I believe him - it was not of this earth. Until proven otherwise.

    Thank You
    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters

  14. Joseph

    Yes, you can call me Nick! Everyone else does. Mr Redfern is far too formal.

    Indeed, it could have been not of this earth. I can't of course pretend to know what went through the mind of Marcel Sr. when he showed his son the debris, but had it been me showing my son (if I had one, which I don't) the materials, it would have gone something like this:

    "Take a look at this I-beam and foil. It's interesting. But have a real look at *this* material. Watch what happens when I wad into a ball: it springs back to its exact original shape and doesn't even have a crease or a mark on it."

    That was my main issue: that Marcel said that he recovered truly extraordinary materials that possessed amazing properties, but only chose to show his family those materials that did *not* possess *any* of those reported memory properties. And Marcel Jr. confirms that - he never saw any sort of memory metal at all.

    Again, the father may have had security issues on his mind, but if that's the case, then why show his son *anything* at all in the first place?

  15. Dear Nick,
    I agree with you. It seems clear thought that the majority of the people who handled the debris from the crash site felt it was extraordinary. To remember specific material 30 years later must have meant it was different. It was pretty plain that they tried to break the "balsa wood with a hammer - you could break balsa wood between your fingers for heaven sake - something was different about the eye beams also. The writing doesn't matter to me. Come to think of it he didn't try to test break the I-beams in front of his son either.

    Thank You again
    Joseph Capp
    UFO Media Matters

  16. Do any of you gentlemen know more about the recently tested Roswell debris that surfaced? I heard it was conclusively proven to be of extraterrestrial origin.

  17. Dear Anonymous,

    No I havn't. I am going to look around probably a hoax though.