Debunkers Dumb Statements List

Or as I like to call it DDSLBy Joseph Capp
Everyone now is on someones list so I decided the debunkers deserve a list. Here’s my TOP 3 UFO "DEBUNKERS DUMB STATEMENTS LIST", all additions welcomed.
Number One:Jumping James Oberg
On the observation by twelve airline employees witnessing an “object’ and or a “craft” hovering 1500 feet over C17, at O’Hare Airport, which then travel upwards so fast that it made a hole in the low hanging clouds showing the clear blue of the sky through it:
“NSTB investigators say that the worst observers of an aviation accident are aviation personnel. It’s because pilots will usually want to understand what’s happened, and in their initial perceptions and the latter retellings will stress the facts that support their interpretations.” [Emphasis here is mine.]
Aviation accident?Excuse Me! So a pilot would view the sighting of a UFO with the same personal impact as a plane crash- I don’t think so – dumb. Its amazing, if Jumping Jim is right, how do pilots ever guide a plane to an emergency safe landing considering they’re concentrating on “what happened” instead of flying the plane. Any pilots out there disagree with Jimbo.
Did the UFO crash at O’Hare? I must have missed that story. Looks like Jumping James Oberg is, once again, stressing “unfacts” that support…Launching another carefully architected Oberg disinfo opportunity.
Number TwoNo Class Phillip KlassThere’s the famous Lonnie Zamora case --in which a respected small-town, country Police Officer broke off his chase of a speeding car to investigate what he thought was a downed plane-- and came across a craft with small occupants.
The late, prolific, Phil Klass, in UFOs Explained, makes his case that the whole Zamora case was cooked up by the mayor to give tiny Socorro, New Mexico some publicity. Not bloody likely…the impact on the life of the reporting cop was extremely negative for years, and no one built a theme park at Socorro.
But my next one needs a setup.
Number Three:
The rain pelted the small window and lightning was streaking white across the dirty glass. Three men sat around a table. The tallest man stood up and stretched, bringing his 6-foot frame to its full height. He started to pace as he spoke.
“We need to bring the attention back to Roswell. Some type of new disclosure. Something to wow ‘em. Yes that is it! Something that will bring the publishers pounding at our door and sign us on for the really big money: THE COLLEGE LECTURE CIRCUIT! We’ve got to come up with something to link it all together, the Roswell tale and an X factor…something that will blow everything else out of the water.”
The tall man walked over to the bar and, reaching behind the top shelf where the bourbon was, pulled out a glass. Poured himself a double.
A portly, heavy-browed guy sat at the table, giving his friend’s Big Idea some thought. He stroked his beard. A hint of gray in beard and what was left of his hair, caught by the overhead neon lighting, gave him an eerie glow. “Yes!” The dramatic arch of his thick brows got even stranger as he became excited. “Hell, a new X-factor, that’s it! Just what we need to bring our old Roswell book sales up! Resurrect the whole book catalog for all of us. I’ll…I’ll even be able to buy that house in Canada.” The portly man shook with excitement, pronouncing ‘Canada’ with religious fervor.
The third man sat in silence, staring straight ahead. Suddenly, he slammed his hand down hard on the table.
“I have it!” he shouted. “Why don’t we claim we have top secret documents? Documents that reveal the government appointed a group --we can work out a cover on that later-- to study the work in our fake Roswell crash. We could easily con one of the organizations like MUFON for research money. And you guys can do the research we need on faking the documents. On their dime!”
Laughter rang out.
The second man in the meeting put ice in his glass. While stirring, he said, “The problem is that if we use MUFON, they will want to see the documents.”
The portly man got up and walked over to the bar. He pulls a glass out. “With an offer of quality scotch, I may be able to fix it.” He smiled as the second man pulled a special bottle he had hidden in an overhead cabinet. “MUFON, no problem: they will go along with me.” The portly man’s smile broadened.
“After all, I’ve been one of their brighter members. I can do this with just a small token--like the first page. We can easily fake that.”
The tall man turned. “We forgot one thing. How are we going to pull this off with the super debunker, Karl Korff?”
How many times have we heard these debunkers laugh in front of the TV cameras and use the term “conspiracy theorist” any time a UFO researcher mentions the withholding of evidence by any agency? This brand of debunker laughs outright or smirks and throws a couple of those silly people looks at the camera.
So guess who’s at the top of the list of my list?
Number Three:Goes to Konspiracy Kal Korff who dreamt up this bad conspiracy theory without a bit of Proof:
Listen, Kal, if you can’t get it right about the date stamp on classified documents or the way they list names or whether they use their rank properly – and this is your expertise – how are you gonna get it right on all this cloak and dagger stuff?
Most UFO researchers will tell you honestly privately, that there is so much competition in the UFO community, if this conspiracy was true someone would have leaked it or wrote a book about it.
The Three Men are William Moore, Stanton Friedman, Jamie Shandera, The documents were the Majestic 12 documents.
Three researchers together- that definitely means there is a conspiracy - calling Joseph McCarthy.
The Dramatization of Kal Korff conspiracy theory and Korff’s mistakes on the way government and military documents are formatted were by interview on:
“UFO Secret MJ-12 - Do You Believe In Majic?” - Two Disk Set
I loved the first DVD. In the second DVD the camera stayed on Stanton’s face rather than on the presentation - this was recorded at another conference and I guess it was a no brainer the second DVD couldn’t be sold alone. It was sold in a set and priced the same as the singles and the first DVD was well worth the price.Such is the world we live in.
Anytime I feel down, I watch the Marx Brothers.
Joseph CappUFO Media Matters

The Real Proof On Roswell Part II

Joseph Capp

To paraphrase Bob Dylan “Blowing In The Wind”:

“How many times does the truth need be told, before it is deem to be true”.

The Testimony
-Mac Brazel, the man who found the debris, was described by neighbors as both private and having integrity. Think about this: a week later, after the weather balloon story was successfully used, Mr. Brazel mentioned to his close friends and his son the truth about what the military actually told him, and how they really felt about the “MOGUL BALLOON”.

“Dad once said that the Army had once told him it was not anything made by us.”

“[Mac] made it plain he was not supposed to tell that there was any excitement about the material he found on the ranch”

So at what IQ would level would you have to be to discover balsa wood and tin foil are not balsa wood and tin foil?

William Brazel, son of the rancher, Mac Brasel who originally retrieved the wreckage from his sheep ranch stated:

“One of the pieces [looked like] something on the order of tinfoil, except that [it] wouldn't tear.... You could wrinkle it and lay it back down and it immediately resumed its original shape... quite pliable, but you couldn't crease or bend it like ordinary metal. Almost like a plastic, but definitely metallic. Dad once said that the Army had once told him it was not anything made by us.

“The ‘string’, I couldn't break it. The only reason I noticed the tinfoil (I'm gonna call it tinfoil), I picked this stuff up and put it in my chaps pocket. Might be two or three days or a week before I took it out and put it in a cigar box. I happened to notice when I put that piece of foil in that box, and the damn thing just started unfolding and just flattened out. “Then I got to playing with it. I'd fold it, crease it, lay it down and it'd unfold. It's kinda weird. I couldn't tear it. The color was in between tinfoil and lead foil, about the [thickness] of lead foil.

“Some of it was like balsa wood: real light and kind of neutral color, more of a tan. To the best of my memory, there wasn't any grain in it. Couldn't break it, it'd flex a little. I couldn't whittle it with my pocket knife.”

-Let’s think on this statement a minute. I worked with balsa wood and it was like no other material in the world, at least at that time. I don’t know about you but I also whittled as a young man. Any whittler knows you need a sharp blade. No one is going to tell me he shouldn't’t have been able to cut a piece of balsa wood, even with the explanation of a coating on the balsa wood that some debunkers claimed explained this. I wondered how many of the debunkers ever whittled.

- Mac’s son said of the tin foil material –“you couldn't’t crease it like regular tin foil – you couldn't’ cut it – you couldn't’tear it – and it unfolded to its original position”. In essence, here is a young teen who was trying to describe what the material was and wasn't used on his own knowledge and experience.

-The statement by Mac, “they told him it was not of this world” has been repeated by researchers many times, but I ask you now to look at this statement in regard to the person he became, frightened. He never talked about the incident. It is so logical given his personality as described by those who were close to him, that the only people he would confide in were his son and some close friends.

-Why would a person in the military tell Mac this “it was not of this world”? I will always believe harassing US citizens dose not sit well with many in the armed forces. Yes, there are evil people in the armed forces, like anywhere else, but this was 1947. We fought a war that was needed for freedom. It does not stretch my imagination that someone in the military was trying to give this man a good reason why they were putting him through this. I think he already knew what it was. Of course, some would like you to think ranchers are stupid.

-If you don’t trust Mac and his son’s word, remember June Crain who worked at Wright Patterson Air Base, the base the material was shipped to. She handled a piece of the “spaceship”: material:

“…and I took it [piece of the spaceship] and I bent it and I twisted it and I laid it back down, and it went [sound] got right back to the same shape.” June Crain*

http://ufomedia.blogspot.com/2007/01/good-american.html


Lydia Sleppy, Teletype Operator:
“[Unknown]...went back and asked Mr. [Karl] Lambertz (he came up from the big Dallas station) if he would come up and watch. John was dictating and [Karl] was standing right at my shoulder. I got into it enough to know that it was a pretty big story, when the bell came on [signaling an interruption]. Typing came across: "This is the FBI, you will cease transmitting."

-Why was the FBI involved with a balloon story? Why was MOGUL balloon, a classified project at that time, reported in the local newspapers the next week as an

Unclassified project might be reported. The articles in various local papers in July, 1947 had nothing to do with “the crash”, just articles on the balloons launches.)

Walt Whitmore, Jr., Son of Radio Station Operator:
“[It was] very much like lead foil in appearance but could not be torn or cut at all. Extremely light in weight. Some small beams that appeared to be either wood or wood-like had a sort of writing on it which looked like numbers which had either been added or multiplied [in columns].”

-I just read an article about the mass hysteria around UFOs including Roswell. In fact the witnesses were curious, not hysterical. In all of the reports from researchers not one witness was described as hysterical.


Bill Rickett , Counter Intelligence Corps officer, was based in Roswell:
“[The material] was very strong and very light. You could bend it but couldn't crease it. As far as I know, no one ever figured out what it was made of....”

-Boy - according to the debunkers we were lucky to win the war with these idiots, mistaking a balloon with radar detectors for an exotic unknown material. I guess we had just bungled into winning WWII. Our soldiers deserve more respect than that.

Loretta Proctor, Mac Brazel's nearest neighbor: “ The piece he brought looked like a kind of tan, light brown plastic. It was very lightweight, like balsa wood. It wasn't a large piece, maybe about four inches long, maybe just a little larger than a pencil. We cut on it with a knife and would hold a match on it, and it wouldn't burn. We knew it wasn't wood. It was smooth like plastic, it didn't have a real sharp corners, kind of like a dowel stick. Kind of dark tan. It didn't have any grain, just smooth. I hadn't seen anything like it.”

Marian Strickland was a neighbor of Mac Brazel. She was interviewed in 1990:
-“[Mac] made it plain he was not supposed to tell that there was any excitement about the material he found on the ranch. He was a man who had integrity. He definitely felt insulted and misused, and disrespected. He was worse than annoyed. He was definitely under some stress, and felt that he had been kicked around. He was threatened that if he opened his mouth, he might get thrown in the back side of the jail. He gave that impression, definitely.”

- Excitement over the MOGUL balloon material? The military kept him for a week after releasing the balloon explanation. Why were they still warning him not to speak about the excitement? If it were only a balloon, and the story was already out there to dismiss the flying saucer, what were they still excited about?
-
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc397.htm

-The roll call of Roswell witnesses is important. Important to the accuracy of the data originally collected by civilians and military, and their immediate families-- who saw and handled the craft materials, and who managed the clean-up operation directly, or who were simply doing the small, necessary tasks in their rank-and-file jobs on the base.

Taking a second look at the Roswell roll call helps me focus on the importance of the testimony given by everyday people. Remember, military intelligence uses your average dependable person as a sources of information in foreign countries and even in our own country today. If the Roswell witnesses were reporting anything else but a UFO crash, they would be given credence and respect. But now they are idiots. They want us to believe these people could not cut simple tin foil or break balsa wood or even cut string.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc397.htm


And even today, we have a UFO witness roll call –the pilots, mechanics and senior management working at the O’Hare airport. We can honestly say there is no discrimination in attacking a UFO witness. You can be an average person with integrity or a pilot with integrity. If you report a UFO you are only a curiosity to the media, an annoyance to our government (at least publicly) and to the debunkers you are stupid or a fool or a liar.

To end this I once again paraphrase Bob Dylan song, (to be sung to the tune of …”):

“The debunkers, my friend, are blowing lots of gas
The debunkers are blowing lots of gas.”

Note:
The Blog RRR Group posted a possible "third Trent photo "attempting to imply the object may be small therefore the Trents were hoaxers.
I posted but then when I tried to post a link to
Dr. Bruce Maccabees rebuttal to Klass
and Sheaffers criticism of the Trents photos
and his personal feeling as to the possible motive and
integrity of the Trents
- they were never posted on RRR blog, so here it is:

http://brumac.8k.com/trent2.html

UFO Media Matters

P.S.
Off topic: Please remember what happened at Walter Reed Hospital to our returning wounded in building #18 . The media and the government should never be allowed to believe this is a forgotten story.

The Real Proof on Roswell

By Joseph Capp
“…It was not an object, it was a craft.”
A pilot: witness Chicago O’Hare case. - Jeff Rense

You know, were not all idiots.

When the last data is retrieved and all the history collected, argued, debated and the last measure-ment has been made, the Roswell ET crash end the truth of what happened will for me be integrity and the risks taken by the original witnesses.

Who gained the most in hiding the truth:

-The witness which supported the crashed spaceship story at Roswell and were told to shut up or else?

-Major Marcel a man who had guarded the security of the atomic bomb, a man who went along with the spin even though it made him look like a idiot for thirty years?

-A rancher who later was marched around after the incident by armed guards?

-Or the top military Command Officers who even after successfully destroying the “Flying Disk” report with the spin in the press (no follow-up stories), still acted as if a flying disk had crashed?

There was NO “fanfare” in the beginning of Roswell lets get that straight right now, it was just people explaining what happened to them, people who had nothing to gain at the time and most of all people who were not idiots. When a person gives testimony on a subject as controversial as spaceships and when that testimony is reported freely with no exchange of money both then and now, then brother and sister you have my attention. Maybe I am a fool but when people come forward like that then I say “no thank you debunker ” I will decide for myself, who is the liar. I can not count the number of times I have turned on the news and heard downright lies disguised as truth on many important issues just because the media refused to give time and thought to the details.
The only group who gave the Roswell witnesses any attention, before the military were the UFO researchers. For their own purposes of course. The argument that the witnesses used common terms to describe the crash fragments(balsa wood ,tin foil among others) just reinforces their honesty for me. Yes of course the witness that handled the material used the terms they were familiar with, they were not trying to embellish on either side. – that was a no brainier.

It’s is now going on sixty years, and the debunkers have made the Roswell witnesses out to be idiots. I guess only the debunkers are smart enough to distinguish between common paper back tin foil like inside a cigarette pack and balsa wood from strange materials that behaved like no others in the world. Most of them are dead and were old at the time they were interviewed but I believe the last memories to go are the most amazing ones you have.
Many of these same witnesses directly experienced, or were threatened with retaliation from military and civilian authorities –including unlawful incarceration, assassination outright, or the ever-popular ‘how would you feel if I told your entire family could be made to disappear’.

These witnesses first recounted their experience in a very different world – a world in which media, military, and authority were in a much less sophisticated relationship. They were clueless, those early Roswell witnesses, when it came to the legacy of ridicule, controversy, and global media fame that Roswell has become.

Some witnesses spoke to researchers because, decades later, they were angry at being treated harshly by the military and warned and not to speak about what they experienced. “This is a free country” was one remark made by a prominent witness.

Balsa wood – Tim Foil?

The Roswell experience first went public when Major Jesse Marcel called a radio program on UFOs and “blurted it out”. The station manager was a HAM radio operator and knew Marcel, also a HAM operator. Stanton Friedman eventually met that station manager, and the rest is history.

Mr. Friedman knows how to get close to people. He is intelligent, articulate and can be downright funny. One of the most objective guys I know – objective to the point of when recounting once to me that Phillip Klass (the infamous, late, professional UFO debunker) was a good conversationalist when they stayed off the subject of UFOs. I wonder how Stanton feels now that it’s come to light how Klass had written to the Canadian government and told them to keep an official eye on Stanton Friedman, identifying the researcher and soon-to-be Canadian resident as a trouble maker who would accuse the government of hiding secrets on UFOs:

http://keyholepublishing.com/New%20Klass%20Letter%20Found.htm

Let me tell you, Phil Klass was a weird guy. Mr. No Klass secretly taped confidential conversations with at least one close friend and fellow skeptic and lost that friendship because of it.

“Don’t follow leaders, watch your parking meters.”
Bob Dylan

That fortunate accident of fellow HAM radio buffs hooking up over a UFO discussion broadcast notwithstanding, it was the Roswell Witnesses who made the story.

Again and again they would tell how the material was amazing. They would try and cut it and couldn’t. When they would crumple it, SNAP! the miracle metal would return to its shape, unmarked. Another witness hit the “balsa wood” with a sledgehammer. Result: the famous featherweight beams would not break.

These are simple things that anyone would do to prove it to themselves these artifacts were special.

Isn’t it amazing how the military and civilian authorities managing the media spin could write it off as balsa wood and paperbacked tin foil… and both the mainstream media, the press, and thinkers on both side of the political spectrum accept it without one question.
How can we believe the commander of the base and the intelligence officer mistook a PROJECT MOGUL balloon for a flying saucer?

You say they didn’t know about MOGUL? Not true! The engineers from PROJECT MOGUL had already been in touch with Roswell base, and solicited them to retrieve their escaped balloons! But the MOGUL group were told to pick them up themselves, because the US Air Force had better things to do. Photos of the MOGUL balloon were in the papers on July 10, same month as Roswell. Clearly, MOGUL balloons had nothing to do with the flying saucers. The concurrent coverage was just an accident.

So what’s the big deal? The Debunkers claim MOGUL was classified.

Wrong. Today we know that the only part of MOGUL that was classified was its mission, not the constituent materials of the big, well-known balloons. Everyone knew about weather balloons. Notably, the balloon that was sent aloft that day had no radar detectors on it –thus demolishing the claim to TOP SECRET status advanced by those original military media spinners who dreamt up the balloon cover story. Now I suggest for those of you who like your revenge served cold on MOGUL to go the virtually strange link.

http://kevinrandle.blogspot.com/2007/02/national-geographics-and-ufos.html

http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/jan/m25-005.shtml


Wonder how many of you out there have built models using balsa wood? I have, in the Fifties. Balsa wood is different I don’t remember anything to compare to it. So in a way I can understand why this very light material reminded the Roswell witnesses of the almost feather light balsa. I have never in my life mistaken Balsa wood for anything but balsa wood, but then, I have never handled fragments of a flying saucer.
UFO Media Matters

Part Two
The Testimony